Filter issues, E. Puts

[wlaidlaw]

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Wilson--how are you white balancing? Just curious Hope it's not AWB, which a guy at one seminar we attended lately (a Canon shooter, too) said stood for "average wrong balance"

 

Jamie,

 

I think that was with sunshine setting but I might have been using cloud. I did have a lock up around that time and as a precaution reloaded 1.092 firmware. For a few shots after that, it was in AWB. I would need to go back to the EXIF's to look. To be honest in bright sunshine, it does not seem to matter. They still come out green with filter. Since the sensing is being done in internal post-processing with the filter on, the camera should correct for it - shouldn't it? If cheap P&S cameras can get AWB right, as have all my other digital Leica's since 1998, most of the time, why can't the M8? I just don't have the time or the inclination to go into menus to change the WB for every shot. Please I would just like to take photos I can enjoy not be fiddling with menus all the time.

 

Apologies Jamie if this seems an ungrateful response - a bad day. My brand new HP B9180 arrived from Germany today. Unpacked it with great excitement, looking forward to getting that Hannemuhle A3+ art paper in there but it was DOA. HP to give them their due, are going to replace it direct, rather than having to send it back to the dealer but that will take a week. They seemed suspiciously familiar with the problem (print carriage jammed on initial set-up ).

 

Wilson

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[wlaidlaw]

I have seen no effect on contrast or even flare unless the filter actually causes it which is somewhat rare but can happen. Folks you bought a M8 it's a manual camera , meaning YOU have to work it. You want it to be automatic than you bought the wrong system. LOL

 

Guy,

 

I am going to disagree with you here. A Leica should first and foremost be a photo reportage tool. If you are going to have to fiddle about with 6 menu items before you take each shot, then the famous photo of the Spanish Civil war soldier being shot (Robert Capa?) would have been a shot of the maggots on his body on the ground.

 

Once I have chosen a lens, pre-selected my likely ISO, probably pre-selected my approximate aperture, all I really want to do is frame, focus and shoot. I accept that when I see the shutter speed, I might have to tweak the aperture up or down a bit but that is all. When a cloud comes in front of the sun, I don't want to have to think "oh dear, I will have to go into the menu and change the white balance".

 

I am just not going to bother with JPEG's for the time being. If I have to colour correct 90% of my output, I might as well take in DNG and run them though a profile anyway.

 

Wilson

[sdai]

My gut feel is that the R system will have a much brighter future than the M will.

[jaapv]

My gut feel is that the R system will have a much brighter future than the M will.

A lot more and stiffer competition in the DSLR game

[sdai]

A lot more and stiffer competition in the DSLR game

But there're certainly more things they can do with a R ... with its great flexibility. All we really care is Leica's peerless optics, right? so the lack of gimmicks and "fondability" may not be an issue for most Leica aficionados at all.

 

Put it the other way, I can never believe that having spent 3-4 years (or even longer) on the M8, Leica do not understand all these limitations than any of us? I think they've already done their best "within the boundaries".

[Jamie Roberts]

Wilson--no apologies necessary! I've had my share of bad days lately too!

 

Anyway--you're right about getting AWB (sort of) right. Most digicams get close (but not right for me) on AWB.

 

The M8's AWB is broken though--Leica knows that. Can't remember where I read it, but I believe it's a known condition right now (and they're working on other stuff).

 

That's why I asked about WB, which seemed way off in the original shot (so your correction was as much about WB as anything else).

 

I'm finding the JPEGs out of the camera are far better with the last firmware. But you have to set WB (not a terribly hard thing to do, even when shooting quickly) to a setting or a custom WB.

 

Of course, if you want to worry about it later, RAW is your best choice

[martinb]

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I'm finding the JPEGs out of the camera are far better with the last firmware. But you have to set WB (not a terribly hard thing to do, even when shooting quickly) to a setting or a custom WB.

 

What do you find have been improved?

[Jamie Roberts]

What do you find have been improved?

 

Well, it may be just me, but the last time I did any serious JPEG shooting with the M8 was back at firmware 1.06.

 

I personally think the JPEG colour balance is very much improved (though you do have to nail white balance), including better synthetic blacks (note I said better--they're still magenta without filters, they're just not as magenta!).

[Bob Ross]

Well, it may be just me, but the last time I did any serious JPEG shooting with the M8 was back at firmware 1.06.

 

I personally think the JPEG colour balance is very much improved (though you do have to nail white balance), including better synthetic blacks (note I said better--they're still magenta without filters, they're just not as magenta!).

Hi Jamie,

I agree with the WB and the Cloudy and Shadow settings seem to be closer to the old warming filters. Saturation and contrast seem to have been nudged higher, but that is based on my PP habits that may change with the seasons.... No comment on the magenta, as I haven't checked it.

Bob

[Guest sirvine]

Properly functioning AWB is nice to have, but really quite far from necessary on this camera. By the time I first see any shots on my computer, the color is corrected. In fact, I shoot at 3200K (arbitrary) and everything is blue when chimping. As long as I have histogram and some indication of focus and framing, it's all good.

[Peter Branch]

"the horrors that can befall the unwary filter user"

 

In all seriousness, can someone explain what these "horrors" are? ..........-- I'm asking about real world impact that hurts performance of the M8 in a demonstrable way.

 

One example is to be found on E. Puts' web-site in his report: - Part 7: M8: the results with the new IR blocking filter.

 

My position is that anyone with a modest knowledge of photography can very easily and reproducibly generate pictures which include ghost images. Filters make it easier and large bright lights in the image make it very easy.

 

Testreports

[Peter Branch]

......whatever that argument is , it really is meaningless because the issue is there and that is all i will deal with. ..........

 

Guy, I could not agree with you more - it is a real issue and the effort, cost and time expended by all parties in getting a working solution is fully justified.

[reprobit]

I found some ghost images and generated some to find out where they come from.

My first impression is, that Leica´s filters have a stronger effect than other reference filters i had in the box

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digitalforum/20829-m8-candlelight-filterghosting.html

 

Bernd

[wlaidlaw]

I found some ghost images and generated some to find out where they come from.

My first impression is, that Leica´s filters have a stronger effect than other reference filters i had in the box

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digitalforum/20829-m8-candlelight-filterghosting.html

 

Bernd

 

Bernd,

 

My problem is more ghost Leica filters (mythical evanescent beings) than ghost images. I got an email saying they were about to be sent off three weeks ago but nada to date. I too would be very interested in comparing the Leica ones to the single B+W 486 I have.

 

Jamie,

 

On the WB issue do you have any idea how many parameters the manual setting sets. Is it just the Kelvin colour temperature or would it also correct for say the green tint in a 486 filter or any other colour imbalance that a particular lens might impart?

 

Wilson

[Artichoke]

Bernd,

 

My problem is more ghost Leica filters (mythical evanescent beings) than ghost images. I got an email saying they were about to be sent off three weeks ago but nada to date. I too would be very interested in comparing the Leica ones to the single B+W 486 I have.

 

Jamie,

 

On the WB issue do you have any idea how many parameters the manual setting sets. Is it just the Kelvin colour temperature or would it also correct for say the green tint in a 486 filter or any other colour imbalance that a particular lens might impart?

 

Wilson

I am also anxiously awaiting my Leica filters, having seen the virtues of shooting with them

from my experience using manual WB with the generic M8 profile in C1 gets very accurate color for most circumstances ...I have not tried Edmund's profiles, but so far I have been quite pleased with the results I get with the filter & if WB is set, the colors seem pretty much spot on ...AWB should be avoided with most digital cameras & the M8 is no exception

[lct]

...AWB should be avoided with most digital cameras & the M8 is no exception

Agreed and if i judge by the pics i view here from time to time, M8 has probably the worst AWB i've ever seen so far.

Now, why not shooting raw? Doesn't take that longer to tweak raws than jpegs does it?

[erl]

Frankly, I find setting RAW DNG's from the M8 so much easier and more accurate than dealing with jpegs that it is a no brainer to shoot only RAW. Batch processing or individual as necessary is so good with RAW.

[wlaidlaw]

OK so lets say that I am using manual WB as all are suggesting - then what happens when you changes lenses. Look at the tests below taken from my terrace this afternoon - BTW not for any artistic merit. It would seem that you would have to reset your manual WB with every lens change. I set manual WB using the 35 Biogon with 486 fitted. The one that amazes me is the colour balance on the 90mm Elmarit-M. It is totally different to the others. The 35mm Biogon still looks greenish to me even though that was the lens on which I set manual WB.

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Different lenses will render different color since that is the look of that particular lens and also between different brands

[Jamie Roberts]

Hey Wilson, a couple of things here.

 

First, using filters here will throw off the overall look of the file beyond the lens differences because you're getting a cyan cast on your custom WB (or manual) due to the filters.

 

This will be fixed in firmware, of course.

 

But you should never have to reset your WB when you change lenses (though as Guy said, different lenses will look different).

 

So what I'd do as a workaround for now is set the WB with your longest lens; it won't have the cast.