M240 liveview and focus confirmation in optical viewfinder

[Jeff S]

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LV adds a delay to the process, so typically you either use one or the other. The system was not designed to use both together. I cant imagine anyone practically doing what you are suggesting. Furthermore, when you turn on LV you have just negated any speed associated with rangefinder focusing.

 

Not everyone goes for speed, especially those who use a tripod for landscape or architectural work, which is now better facilitated by LV. One can frame and focus using the VF, then fine tune with LV.

 

Personally, while I don't yet have the new M, and while I prefer traditional RF use, I'm looking forward to having LV in order to check lens/camera focus calibration, which has been problematic with digital Ms. Evaluation will be made much easier now by focusing with the RF and then checking against LV.

 

Never say never....

 

Jeff

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[AJB]

This is a bemusing thread. A number of the suggestions seem in essence to be describing a desire for autofocus. DSLRs allow multiple, selectable focus points and can change colour when focus is acquired at those points. I expect I am being very dim here (and I don't yet have a 240, only an M9) but surely rangefinder is one beast and autofocus is another.

[kdriceman]

This is a bemusing thread. A number of the suggestions seem in essence to be describing a desire for autofocus. DSLRs allow multiple, selectable focus points and can change colour when focus is acquired at those points. I expect I am being very dim here (and I don't yet have a 240, only an M9) but surely rangefinder is one beast and autofocus is another.

 

Well there are manual focus DSLR lenses that provide focus confirmation... Albeit they use the AF system on the DSLR to achieve their confirmation.

[01af]

Ok then rarely if ever.

Umm ... you didn't get the pun, did you? (on two levels)

 

 

I can't imagine anyone actually doing what you suggest.

Rest reassured that I (occasionally) do what I suggest. So do others. It's really useful ... at times.

 

 

Once you focus with the rangefinder, you will then need to reposition the camera to use live view to frame.

No, you don't need to reposition the camera. You can just as well reposition yourself. Or you can use the electronic accessory finder.

 

 

Also why would you go thru all this trouble? The frame lines were right there in front of you.

I happen to have one of those Ms with no framelines for anything shorter than 28 mm.

 

 

The system was not designed to use both together.

The system was not designed to prevent using both together. You can always use one, or the other, or both.

 

 

I can't imagine anyone practically doing what you are suggesting.

What's so hard about thinking of live view as a more convenient, body-integrated wide-angle accessory finder?

[pico]

I am sorry, thirty years of hardware, software and firmware development/testing got me to ask such questions.

 

Me, too. There are many claims that it is impossible to have such a feature in the Leica M, however an interesting electronic (infrared based) rangefinder was developed by Linhof in the late 80s. They actually brought it to market in 1994 or so, but it failed for a few reasons, one being price, and in particular it was deceived by certain patterns and was not effective for long lenses. A great deal of computer development, miniaturization and economy of scale has occurred since.

 

Those who claim it is impossible might be surprised some day.

 

As to what is in focus, one approach could be to note when coincidence is achieved at the RF patch and the center of the viewfinder window. Something like contrast recognition.

[digitalfx]

Me, too. There are many claims that it is impossible to have such a feature in the Leica M, however an interesting electronic (infrared based) rangefinder was developed by Linhof in the late 80s. They actually brought it to market in 1994 or so, but it failed for a few reasons, one being price, and in particular it was deceived by certain patterns and was not effective for long lenses. A great deal of computer development, miniaturization and economy of scale has occurred since.

 

Those who claim it is impossible might be surprised some day.

 

As to what is in focus, one approach could be to note when coincidence is achieved at the RF patch and the center of the viewfinder window. Something like contrast recognition.

 

Please read the OP's question.

The original question was can this be done with a firmware update.

 

Of course this is possible. But not with a simple FW update.

[digitalfx]

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What's so hard about thinking of live view as a more convenient, body-integrated wide-angle accessory finder?

 

Agreed, this is exactly how I use LV. I no longer carry around accessory finders. I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

[pico]

Please read the OP's question.

The original question was can this be done with a firmware update.

 

My bad!

[diogenis]

Please read the OP's question.

The original question was can this be done with a firmware update.

 

Of course this is possible. But not with a simple FW update.

 

Now, you are going to tell us and insist that for something you thought it was impossible to ever happen now it.... needs more than a firmware upgrade? How do you know that?

I can easily think that there is enough hardware on that camera to supprot such a feature already. And Michael already said that they have implemented it too!

[Stevez5]

If focus peaking actually worked with the EVF2 as described in the manual that might answer the issue. But it doesn't and Leica is aware of that.

[digitalfx]

Now, you are going to tell us and insist that for something you thought it was impossible to ever happen now it.... needs more than a firmware upgrade? How do you know that?

I can easily think that there is enough hardware on that camera to supprot such a feature already. And Michael already said that they have implemented it too!

 

I dont understand what you are suggesting here. But if you read this thread from the beginning it might make sense to you.

 

The OP's question was:

Last night at our local M240 launch, got to play with the M240.

 

Question for Leica and a potential firmware change.......

 

With Liveview enabled, would it be possible to provide some visual "focus confirmation" in the optical viewfinder ?

 

Eg maybe have the frameline switch to the alternating colour "Red to White" or "White to Red" at the moment of focus ?

 

IMO implementing what he is asking for with just a firmware upgrade is impossible.

 

And by that I am referring to the concept, not the mere flashing of the frame lines. Flashing the frame lines is simple...but the hard part is defining when/what is in focus at the point that they flash and how that is communicated to the camera with a FW update alone. The hardware doesnt exist to do this.

[pico]

Now, you are going to tell us and insist that for something you thought it was impossible to ever happen now it.... needs more than a firmware upgrade? How do you know that?

I can easily think that there is enough hardware on that camera to supprot such a feature already. And Michael already said that they have implemented it too!

 

Leica did not implement the rangefinder hardware necessary to support your wish. Why should they? It is cost- prohibited. Crazy.

[mjh]

Leica did not implement the rangefinder hardware necessary to support your wish.

What rangefinder hardware? This thread is about a focus confirmation display in the optical viewfinder that is driven by an analysis of the live view data. As I have said this is indeed quite possible in principle and had actually been implemented, but it didn’t work so well so Leica eventually scrapped that idea.

[digitalfx]

What rangefinder hardware? This thread is about a focus confirmation display in the optical viewfinder that is driven by an analysis of the live view data. As I have said this is indeed quite possible in principle and had actually been implemented, but it didn’t work so well so Leica eventually scrapped that idea.

 

so maybe you could explain what this is. If you are looking thru the rangefinder, how does the LV screen know what part of the screen you want in focus?

[mjh]

so maybe you could explain what this is. If you are looking thru the rangefinder, how does the LV screen know what part of the screen you want in focus?

That would be one of the issues this feature suffered from, I suppose. As I have said I didn’t have a chance to actually try it out.

[digitalfx]

That would be one of the issues this feature suffered from, I suppose. As I have said I didn’t have a chance to actually try it out.

 

Call me a skeptic, but since the rangefinder is the same as the M9P, how does it magically communicate which part of the frame you want in focus to LV?

[kdriceman]

Maybe not so far- fetched. Lets say that through firmware the center spot on the sensor is designated as the focus point. Then as the contrast detect - or focus peaking- moves across those designated pixels couldn't it be programmed to flash the frame lines?

[jaapv]

Only the RF patch has not got a fixed position, due to the framing shifting because of the viewfinder parallax.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

What rangefinder hardware? This thread is about a focus confirmation display in the optical viewfinder that is driven by an analysis of the live view data. As I have said this is indeed quite possible in principle and had actually been implemented, but it didn’t work so well so Leica eventually scrapped that idea.

 

You are remiss in reading my post(s).

[rramesh]

Visual focus confirmation is an eye-brain thing.

 

The rangefinder patch has worked well for all these years and has resulted in so many amazing pictures.

 

Are we looking at genuine improvement or a needless wish?

 

Also having too many options (I think live view is already an option) means that the user will be so busy looking for the best confirmation while the moment has long gone.