M7 vs. MP reliablilty?

[andyedward]

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I understand the M7 has more moving parts than the MP, which could theoretically lead to more long term failures, but is there any any real world evidence of this?

[kokoshawnuff]

I read about quite a few issues with the first generation M7s, but I have not heard of any failures out of the ordinary with those second generation M7s (ie those with the MP VF and optical DX readers, made after the intro of the MP).

 

Ultimately, the more mechanical a camera is, the longer it will last. I don't see anything (other than a lack of competent camera repair people) that would suggest people won't be using 150 year old M3s if there is film or some kind of substitute.

[thrid]

I understand the M7 has more moving parts than the MP, which could theoretically lead to more long term failures, but is there any any real world evidence of this?

 

Actually it's the other way around. The M7 shutter has fewer parts than a mechanical M.

[thrid]

I purchased an M7 new in 2006. It's seen heavy use and lots of travel and has never given me trouble.

 

Lot's of info here.

 

Leica FAQ — Leica M7

[Keith (M)]

Bought a new M7 two years ago. In about four months of gentle use it went through two sets of batteries and then died completely. Back to Solms (under warranty of course) for repair and also to have the rangefinder properly aligned plus the lens-mount adjusted (it was quite sloppy, to use the technical term). Of course, in Leica film-camera terms these latter two problems are not exclusive to the M7 but total electrical/electronics failure is. It has behaved impeccably since then. Maybe mine was a Friday afternoon one...

 

I understand the M7 has more moving parts than the MP, which could theoretically lead to more long term failures, but is there any any real world evidence of this?

 

In the M7 electromagnets replace gears, cams and levers in the shutter mechanism that governs timing of the curtains, so presumably the M7 has fewer moving parts. As to long-term reliability, perhaps the question should be regarding long-term repairability...

[earleygallery]

Exactly.

 

The M7 isn't unreliable, but over the very long term, an MP will be more repairable.

 

At some point one of the electronic parts or circuit boards inside an M7 will become unavailable. Pretty much anything inside the MP could be engineered if needed (exclude the built in meter for the purposes of this discussion).

 

I have a Leica R3 which I've owned since new. It is totally reliable, but I fear the day should something electrical fail as it will then most likely become a nice paperweight. That said, getting on for 30yrs of service is pretty good so it's earned it's keep.

[tadeyev]

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Exactly. I have a Leica R3 which I've owned since new. It is totally reliable, but I fear the day should something electrical fail as it will then most likely become a nice paperweight. That said, getting on for 30yrs of service is pretty good so it's earned it's keep.

 

Often I read about long term reliability issues regarding M7 vs. MP or M6 or whatever, and of course it has been on my mind too in making choices.

Until I sat down and really thought about it….

 

We have to be honest with ourselves: How many years do we think we will use our cameras? 50 more years? Me: no way, already past 50.

 

So in practical terms, for most of the older generation here at least, we are looking at not much more than 20-30 years of pleasure from these cameras, and Leica will definitely have parts for them for that long (at least). Furthermore, there will certainly be smaller workshops that will have parts. Just like for really old Rolexes, which Rolex will no longer repair because they are too old. There are several specialists just doing that kind of work today.

 

For that reason I sometimes suspect that MP owners use their cameras as psychological talismans destined to hold their spirits after they have passed away ;-0)

 

Worrying about the repairability of M7 vs. MP based on mechanical issues seems for that reason irrelevant to me, and I think it has been used far too often as an excuse against the M7, which is just a great camera (I don't own one by the way!)

 

Just my 2 cents and no offence intended to MP owners!

 

Theo

[wattsy]

we are looking at not much more than 20-30 years of pleasure from these cameras, and Leica will definitely have parts for them for that long (at least).

 

I wouldn't bank on it. Leica's record in terms of parts availability is mixed to say the least.

[tadeyev]

I wouldn't bank on it. Leica's record in terms of parts availability is mixed to say the least.

 

Like I pointed out, it does not matter only what Leica has or has not in their parts drawer.

 

I just had my Model D from 1938 repaired with no problems at a top Leica restorer, and this bears no relation to the M7 which is still in full production, so all the parts are available and will not be disappearing any time soon to say the very least.

 

If we were discussing a model that was discontinued years ago and was never popular (M5 maybe?) that might be a different story.

[wattsy]

Like I pointed out, it does not matter only what Leica has or has not in their parts drawer.

 

Maybe not but my point was specifically in relation to the question of Leica's parts drawer.

 

As far as Barnack cameras go, these are entirely mechanical and a skilled machinist can fabricate any necessary parts. The M7 uses electronic parts for essential functions (eg. to time all shutter speeds except 1/125 and 1/60). This doesn't mean that parts will be hard to come by any time soon or that a knowledgeable repair person couldn't cobble together and/or fix the essential electronic parts long after Leica has lost interest in the camera but it does make the camera a little bit more vulnerable to obsolescence than purely mechanical cameras such as all the other M film bodies.

Edited March 10, 2013 by wattsy

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

50 years is not such a long time.

 

I live & work in a 116 year old Historic Firehouse inside of which there is: An antiques & fine arts business, my home & a teaching museum. When you look at it you see 90% of the original Firehouse that was there in 1897. It is undergoing a restoration begun years ago which will probably take another 15 years to complete.

 

It is & always will be a Firehouse first.

 

Buildings & cameras are documents no different than a book.

 

We are not the owners of this World. We are simply the caretakers.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited March 11, 2013 by Michael Geschlecht

[alun]

Well, I'm not sure about moving parts, but the M7 does have more electronic circuitry. My 2006 (I think it was) M7, which I no longer have, initially had a number of faults, all of which were corrected by Solms. BUt they were all electrical faults, not mechanical.

[tadeyev]

Well, I'm not sure about moving parts, but the M7 does have more electronic circuitry. My 2006 (I think it was) M7, which I no longer have, initially had a number of faults, all of which were corrected by Solms. BUt they were all electrical faults, not mechanical.

 

Perhaps that might ba an issue: I read on the net form people who never had a single hiccup with their M7 after years of use, and others who had problems almost right from the start….But it was fine after being given a once over. Maybe it is an electronics QC issue. Anyway, I still want to get a M7 one day.

 

Theo

[earleygallery]

 

I just had my Model D from 1938 repaired with no problems at a top Leica restorer, and this bears no relation to the M7 which is still in full production, so all the parts are available and will not be disappearing any time soon to say the very least.

 

If we were discussing a model that was discontinued years ago and was never popular (M5 maybe?) that might be a different story.

 

You prove the point I was making - your very old mechanical Leica can still be easily repaired. The M7 is very much like my R3 in terms of being a relatively simple electronic camera. Fact is that they are no longer economically or in some cases possibly repairable.

 

The M7 will be fine whilst it remains in production & for some years after, but it will eventually meet the same fate. But as others have said, how long do you want it to last anyway?

[airscrew]

I have M7 from the first batch (s/n 2778193), bought it as new ten years ago. It has served me well without any issues (from frozen temperature to tropical humidity) and aged nicely, I like the way how the black chrome changes its look.

 

I just bought used M8 but my M7 will have some second hand 35 or 50 lens, BW film and a new life as an ever ready spare camera in 14522 leather case.

 

Jouni

[Archiver]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that much of the desire for a long-lasting camera involves a somewhat fuzzy notion of just what 'long lasting' entails. Certainly, a mechanical camera contains parts that are more readily duplicated if future stocks run low, but how many of us will regularly use a camera beyond 20-30 years, especially given advances in technology, as well as our changing needs and desires.

 

Before I got my first DSLR I used compact digital cameras exclusively, and I often thought that if I had a Canon 5D and the 35L, I would never need another camera. Eventually when I bought a 5D Mark II body and put my 35L on it, after a few weeks, I went back to the store and bought the 24-105L. Then came the 70-200 f4 L, the 16-35L, and other bits and pieces. Not to mention that I ended up with a M9 a couple of years down the track.

 

I have a M7 which is a bit of a shelf queen, coming out for a fondle and shoot every now and again while the M9 does primary duty. In the back of my mind is the notion that if I had a MP, it would be 'future proof', able to shoot for as long as film is available, but I really don't shoot enough film to say that I would need it!

 

There's that romantic desire for longevity and loyalty, a camera that lasts for decades of your life, a documenter for your travels and travails. On a related note, I've heard of people wearing mechanical Rolexes for 30+ years, taking them through marriages and army careers, a witness and companion that stays constant when everything else changes. But even history itself suggests that everything changes and passed into something new. Said Rolex owners often find themselves in a boutique and decide to buy a new model.

 

On a practical note, electronics may fail and be fried, but mechanical cameras can almost always be overhauled. If you really want a 'camera for life', a mechanical camera is probably the best bet, especially when you're paying thousands of dollars.

[pico]

I have two early M7s. They are just fine.

I am a Leica M user since 1965.

 

The fussy stuff about the M7 is just that - fussy. Get over it.

 

The M7 is fantastic; the very best film rangefinder camera made.

.

Edited March 13, 2013 by pico

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

What Pico said is correct. M7's are reliable & their electronic shutters are more accurate than any other film "M's" shutter. Too bad there isn't any Kodachrome 25 or 64 to use them with.

 

All film "M's" are reliable cameras.

 

As to longevity & usability: Assuming either film & processing continue to be available or someone starts making nifty little digital inserts that fit where a film cartridge goes now.

 

A purely mechanical camera has its advantages given the parameters of what is needed from a camera & lens today. It is pretty much a mature device that does what it is supposed to do & does it reasonably well in a reasonably reliable manner.

 

With a mechanical camera there is not the worry of failure due to a lack of availability of or the eventual internal degradation of electronic components.

 

Archiver mentioned there are old watches from years ago that are still reliable timekeepers & are as useful today as they were years ago. That is because the parameters of their use has remained pretty much the same. As with film cameras to date.

 

It is possible to develop a concept to a point where it is so sucessful that there is very little reason to change things.

 

Sort of like sharks & the large brown bears of the Northern Hemisphere. Both evolved to a certain point where they were quite sucessful at what they did & then pretty much stopped changing.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited March 13, 2013 by Michael Geschlecht

[cbretteville]

[Rant mode on:]

The only thing I really dislike with my M7 is the DX reader and the programming around it. The optical DX reader is so sensitive that if a tiny bit of paint is missing from the canister in on one of the ISO code blocks it will read it as a return and you get an invalid iso set. It is intermittent and not constant. Try using an uncoded film canister that is white (like those from Maco) or yellow one and the reader thinks "ah, no black blocks, we have ISO5000". So I set the ISO manually and have the exposure compensation dot constantly blinking in the VF. Really, really annoying. Just bad programming. If I set the ISO manually, I decide the ISO and the camera should just not care, just flash the ISO in the finder when switched on. As it is it keeps that dot blinking to warn me that I've done something horrible and set the ISO to something it doesn't agree with. It renders the real functionality of the blinking dot useless too. As it is constantly blinking, it no longer serves as a warning that I've set +/- something.

 

I regret having the electrical DX reader "upgraded" to the supposedly more reliable optical version. At least it didn't want to shoot Rollei Retro 100 at ISO5000.

[Rant mode off]

 

Cheers,

Carl

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[bill]

Increasingly I think in terms of camera age in the same way as aircraft airframes... A Shelf Queen (or museum piece) can look like new, but be effectively useless because it has seized up inside from not being used. A camera that has been used regularly and serviced when required may hum along like a well-oiled sewing machine regardless of its age - my 51 year old M2 and my 84 year old II attest to that. But a camera that has been abused or neglected will be a dog - until it is restored.

 

M7 vs MP? Had one, have one. My first M7 had the battery drain problem and was swapped out within a week. My second lasted for a decade before I sold it on. My MP hasn't missed a beat.

 

You pays your money...

 

Regards,

 

Bill