plasticman Posted December 20, 2012 Share #61 Posted December 20, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I often test new lenses or cameras by taking test shots of my kitchen sink - it's definitely not art, but even in those shots, sensors differentiate themselves in tonality, dimensionality and how they handle highlights. Anyone who says you can't judge anything about a camera from shots like these is just being defensive. There's much more to be learned about a sensor from boring and dreary test shots, than from sending out a top Magnum photographer to take the 'prized' images some appear to be waiting for. Those photographers can take great shots with any old p&s. To me it just looks pretty much like criticizing the IQ of the new M is gonna be met with the usual attacks on this forum. Haters gonna hate indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 20, 2012 Posted December 20, 2012 Hi plasticman, Take a look here M-240 "Seeking Light". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Paul J Posted December 20, 2012 Share #62 Posted December 20, 2012 The pictures looks grey, soft and Canikon like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 20, 2012 Share #63 Posted December 20, 2012 I think that a beta tester has as a primary goal to take HUNDREDS of pics, playing often with features like changing ISO, and other settings, just to verify that software is robust : this means not to try to take FINE pictures, but simply "use a lot the camera" : all the "inmost" tuning to get the best IQ I think is a matter of inside lab. Supposed these are really M240 images, leaked for viral marketing, I think that the same strategy will lead to show really good images soon before the availability of the camera, and taken by carefully choosen professionals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 20, 2012 Share #64 Posted December 20, 2012 I don't want to see nice pictures, Lomos can do that very well, i want to see what the camera is capable of. I can see now what i did not see on my laptop i.e. that there is some banding at 4000 iso out of what appears like a beta test sample of the M-240. This is what interest me, among other features, not the artistic or processing skills of the photographer. Others' mileage may vary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 20, 2012 Share #65 Posted December 20, 2012 I think that a beta tester has as a primary goal to take HUNDREDS of pics, playing often with features like changing ISO, and other settings, just to verify that software is robust : this means not to try to take FINE pictures, but simply "use a lot the camera" ... Sure ... but if you were an M beta tester with several hundred casual test shots in your archive and asked to pick half a dozen for an article about the M in your friend's web log—wouldn't you be able to come up with a few at least half-decent pictures? Pictures that actually tell something about the camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 20, 2012 Share #66 Posted December 20, 2012 As a pathetic photog myself, i seem to recall that some famous photogs have been unable to detect the magenta issue of the M8 in 2006 so why not a doctor, a dentist or a lawyer (are you hearing Leica?) in 2012? And you really think that this guy, shooting pics of his wife at Costco, is going to have much to add to Leica's knowledge vs a dedicated in the field shooter? It really smacks more of one CEO that knows another CEO... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 21, 2012 Share #67 Posted December 21, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Are the M-240 microlenses more efficient than those of the M9? Does the M-240 get rid of the color shifts of the former? Does it retrieve the sharpness of the M8? How does it behave in B&W? How does it handle IR and moiré? How does it handle digital noise and smearing at high isos? etc... None of those basic (to me) questions receive the least beginning of answers through the first M-240 pics of the Leica site in spite or because of the fact that they've been shot by a "dedicated" photographer. So yes, from this viewpoint, what you call the "pathetic" pics above do teach me more than the formers. But again YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted December 21, 2012 Share #68 Posted December 21, 2012 The responses to this thread are hysterical. It is clear that a lot of people have a lot of time on their wringing hands waiting for the new camera. I get it I am not being critical of anyone but the tenor of concern and dismissing of these suits worthy of an instamatic are indeed reflective of a fan base that can't wait and woe be Leica if the product fails to meet what seem to be increasingly extraordinary expectations. If you take a step back you will see just how funny this all is. For the record I have an m9. Love it. Tried the new M at the photo plus expo in NYC and it wasn't for me. But I hope leica sells a gazillion of the m so they can stay in business and innovate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 21, 2012 Share #69 Posted December 21, 2012 Are the M-240 microlenses more efficient than those of the M9? Does the M-240 get rid of the color shifts of the former? Does it retrieve the sharpness of the M8? How does it behave in B&W? How does it handle IR and moiré? How does it handle digital noise and smearing at high isos? etc... None of those basic (to me) questions receive the least beginning of answers through the first M-240 pics of the Leica site in spite or because of the fact that they've been shot by a "dedicated" photographer. So yes, from this viewpoint, what you call the "pathetic" pics above do teach me more than the formers. But again YMMV. Really, these shots tell you any of those things? All they tell me is why bother, may as well have been shot by a cheapo p&s. I'm sure Leica is not too pleased about these leaking. Honestly, I could care less whether the photographer is "dedicated" as you say, but it's just plain wrong to put one of only 25 cameras in the hands of somebody who can't even focus and recompose (notice how the subject is always in the center). But as you say, each to his own. Soon enough we'll see what the camera can do in the hands of actual photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted December 21, 2012 Share #70 Posted December 21, 2012 Normally testing software has to be more methodical that just handing a camera to a guy and saying go out and shoot and tell me what doesn't work. You want to limit the variables and know what may have caused the problem(s) encountered. Thus, at least initially, you provide scripts designed to test every feature. Then, when you are satisfied that all of the scripts perform as intended do you allow random events and try to capture the unexpected action that the programmer never expected would happen. These shots in what appears to be either Biscayne Bay in Miami or parts of Miami Beach on the inter-coastal waterway really don't test very much of the camera's ability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 21, 2012 Share #71 Posted December 21, 2012 Really, these shots tell you any of those things?... They tell me two things at this stage, that there is some banding at 4000 iso and that one flower looks plasticky. This is through unprocessed jpegs like these that we discovered the IR problems of the M8 six years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted December 21, 2012 Share #72 Posted December 21, 2012 This. All this here? Everything I hate about the Leica User Forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstlight Posted December 21, 2012 Share #73 Posted December 21, 2012 Leica doesn't care about these pictures at all. They know what the sensor is capable off, they know how much pre-orders they got and hell they know what masterpiece they have crafted . Back to these pics: Give this guy an M9 and the pictures will also be dusty, dirty and not saying anything at all...maybe he should keep up taking images with his mobile . Let's wait for some real test shots from official side! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 21, 2012 Share #74 Posted December 21, 2012 Sure ... but if you were an M beta tester with several hundred casual test shots in your archive and asked to pick half a dozen for an article about the M in your friend's web log—wouldn't you be able to come up with a few at least half-decent pictures? Pictures that actually tell something about the camera? Yes, if I should be, I would do : others can be of different opinion (don't understand why... ) or... can't take better pictures than those, with due respect to anyone who is a "Dr."... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted December 21, 2012 Share #75 Posted December 21, 2012 I remember seing some stunning polar light pictures posted by the same photographer taken with his S2, so he might not be completely incompetent . It is also obvious, that these pictures were not posted with the intent of a serious evaluation of the M(240) performance. I found it nice to see any pictures, just for the fun. And we shouldn't make any more out of posting them. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted December 21, 2012 Share #76 Posted December 21, 2012 This. All this here? Everything I hate about the Leica User Forum. No-one is forcing you to read or participate. One more thing: these images are out there - should it be forbidden to discuss them, just because they're not good? What if they were spectacular? I assume then it would be ok? As for the other discussion, I am totally uninterested in the 'artistic' merit or otherwise of these images, or the profession, status or anything else of the photographer. My first impression was that these images were some kind of 'joke' because they genuinely look inferior to (say) an E-PL5 - flat but with horrible blown highlights; grey and lifeless but plasticky; unsharp and mushy; banded at high ISO. Naturally Salgado would've wowed us with something spectacular - but these images show something else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 21, 2012 Share #77 Posted December 21, 2012 Mani is correct - the technical merits of the images are doubtful - but these are not an official testimonial shots, they are "leaked' and thus should be regarded on the same level as those blurry photographs of heavily camouflaged new car models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted December 21, 2012 Share #78 Posted December 21, 2012 Mani is correct - the technical merits of the images are doubtful - but these are not an official testimonial shots, they are "leaked' and thus should be regarded on the same level as those blurry photographs of heavily camouflaged new car models. Like the leaked blurry photographs of M240 we saw earlier this year shot in a car... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 21, 2012 Share #79 Posted December 21, 2012 I'm dismayed that Leica appears only now to be putting the camera out for beta test. I had assumed it was being tested intensively all these months by the likes of Jono Slack - who may still have been testing it but cannot say. The camera is as new as the M8 was in 2006 and we know about the problems it had so Leica should be testing this camera intensively and when they think they have done that, they should test it some more. I really hope their first CMOS rangefinder delivers quality in spades but there can be no "It's CCD, not CMOS" excuses now. We are going to be so disappointed if the M240 doesn't move the IQ forwards in at least some areas. I think Photokina happened 6 - 9 months too early. Tying your major product announcements to an arbitrary 2 year cycle is always going to be fraught with problems not least your revenue plunges as you run out of old product to sell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted December 21, 2012 Share #80 Posted December 21, 2012 Normally testing software has to be more methodical that just handing a camera to a guy and saying go out and shoot and tell me what doesn't work. You want to limit the variables and know what may have caused the problem(s) encountered. Thus, at least initially, you provide scripts designed to test every feature. What you describe might be sensible for an alpha, but not a beta test. A beta test is for finding those bugs the developers don’t know about. Stuff like doing A, B, and then C, resulting in a lock-up. Or some odd combination of settings leading to unexpected results. These are issues you won’t identify with a carefully planned testing set-up or having people testing the camera who are all experienced photographers of much the same mind-set. Then, when you are satisfied that all of the scripts perform as intended do you allow random events and try to capture the unexpected action that the programmer never expected would happen. Exactly. That’s the stage we are in right now. You need to give copies to all kinds of people so hopefully everything gets tested. Getting great shots from the beta testers is only a minor concern, if it is a concern at all. Optimising image processing is a different task quite distinct from the beta test that is pursued in parallel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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