John Z. Goriup Posted December 25, 2012 Share #21  Posted December 25, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is this the unit that you're all talking about ? - please see photo attached  I too tried my 21mm Super Elmar at first without an auxiliary view finder and can assure you that using the viewfinder outline of the bare camera ( at least in the case of my M9P ) without some kind of accurate reference is simply not satisfactory. You'll miss way too much of the periphery, and isn't that the reason for getting an ultra-wide in the first place.  The primary reason I chose this particular viewer is that I can now select 28 / 24 and 21 mm framing - no separate white frame lines per se - while finding the framing to be quite precise.  Please don't misinterpret the following as sarcasm or disrespect, but I've never understood putting aesthetics of such necessary equipment ahead of function. If the viewer I've shown is a little larger than the single frame viewer for the respective focal length, it's larger because it houses the indexing feature and the external selector ring, ergo it will be larger,......... BUT, on the other hand, I also won't have to buy three separate, "pretty" viewfinders @ at around $ 750.00 each for the respective focal length. I paid $395 for the slightly used 10- unit in the photo and it serves the purpose of framing my shots very effectively. All I'm waiting for now is for my dealer to order & receive the +2 diopter lens to match the camera viewfinder to be in business for all my wide angle lenses........since I don't foresee myself ever going shorter than 21mm. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/192840-using-21mm-or-24mm-without-external-finder/?do=findComment&comment=2197657'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 25, 2012 Posted December 25, 2012 Hi John Z. Goriup, Take a look here Using 21mm or 24mm without external finder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Erik Gunst Lund Posted December 25, 2012 Share #22 Â Posted December 25, 2012 WATE Viewfinder Image from Steve Huff... Â http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/wate1.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted December 26, 2012 Share #23 Â Posted December 26, 2012 Sold my 21 24 28 finder when purchasing 18 and got the Leica 18 finder. Also have a 24 so the dotted lines work for both lenses. And one can site between the two for 21. This finder is good if you think you might get an 18. Â Sometimes throw on the 24 without the finder. You meter and focus as always. Found if put subject in middle and chimp get by. Especially if not in a rush. Â If you go for the 21 you will want to use the finder to be sure to place interesting subjects properly in the foreground. Worth the time to install the finder. Â So if you only do buildings or rocks you can chimp....or use new M without a finder. Â I considered doing exactly this and buying an 18 at the same time. It was only realisation that less than 10% of my shots (nearer 5 from memory) were actually taken below 28 that stopped me. I did manage to use a 21 on my M8 successfully without a viewfinder but failed with both the 21 and 24 on my M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colmac Posted December 27, 2012 Share #24 Â Posted December 27, 2012 After 26 yrs shooting with an M4-P and Mandler's 35 Lux, 50 Cron and 90 Tele Elmarit, I have been thinking about getting a WA, maybe an Elmar 24mm. I'm assuming the 28 brightline frame appears when a 24mm lens is mounted but would love to know for sure. Appreciate any advice on WA with analogue Leicas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted December 27, 2012 Share #25 Â Posted December 27, 2012 The Elmar-M 24mm f/3.8 ASPH 11648 brings up the frame lines for 24/35mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 27, 2012 Share #26 Â Posted December 27, 2012 35/135 on the M4-P i guess but i don't have this camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted December 27, 2012 Share #27 Â Posted December 27, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ahh yes I was refering to the Digital Ms the link is for the Leica M codes especially for the M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colmac Posted December 27, 2012 Share #28 Â Posted December 27, 2012 Thanks for the advice . Maybe I should buy a digital M and be done with it though that would entail replacing my 'analogue' lenses as these were designed specifically for Kodak film, not for the Kodak sensor. Didn't I read about forum members who've gone digital migrating to new generation lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted December 27, 2012 Share #29 Â Posted December 27, 2012 The lenses more or less keep their performance as is, good and bad... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 27, 2012 Share #30 Â Posted December 27, 2012 Not sure if i reply to your question correctly but your lenses may be used on M8 and M9 cameras as well. The M8/M8u/M8.2 are the only bodies with 24mm framelines in the viewfinder. They would give you a 24x1.33 = 32mm field of view as you probably know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efreed2754 Posted December 27, 2012 Share #31  Posted December 27, 2012 Hi colmac  Yes the newer lenses designed by Peter Karbe tend to be sharper. There is more margin for error with film (3 layers?) than digital. While almost all lenses "work" on film and digital bodies, sometimes the tolerances are wider on older lenses.  My 75 Lux had to be adjusted but my 24, 35, 90 and 135 did not. Leica or a good repair person can do the adjusting if needed.  With digital you can enlarge photos more on your computer screen, leading to so called "pixel peepers" who fixate on the sharpness of a lens.  Many threads on the more traditional look of pre digital lenses, mostly designed by Walter Mandler who preceded Karbe. Many of us have two of each to throw on for the effect you want. One easy example is the 75 Lux is more creamy while the 75 Summicron more revealing. For portraits of women the older 75 is preferred. The older lenses provide a more nostalgic look of what many of us grew up with.  So more about the effect you see in your mind than what the equipment does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colmac Posted December 28, 2012 Share #32  Posted December 28, 2012 Hi, Appreciate your input and yes I’ve perused the threads here on lens characteristics and now appreciate that recent lens design compensates for the lack of depth on a sensor vs. 2 microns of forgiving crystal on film. For this sort of information the forum is a virtual treasure-trove, my thanks to all. On digital vs. analogue: I use a digital consumer camera for instant ‘replay’ purposes but still prefer analogue because it somehow forces me to use my eyes & brain before activating the shutter. Back in 1970, I shot 360 slides on Kodachrome - albeit with a jappy SLR - during a 90 day tour of Rhodesia and Malawi; a friend who spent 3 days in Venice at carnival this year captured 3,500 images with two Nikons. That sounds rather stressful and monotonous too! Incidentally, his D3s and D700 are now obsolete and according to media hype need replacing, so he just bought a D800; that’s perhaps the biggest bummer with digital kit. Anyway getting back to the subject of this thread; originally I asked which bright-line frame appears in an M4-P’s viewfinder (28 – 135mm) when a 24mm lens is mounted. Well, I still don’t know but I’m sure there are folks out there who do. So, come on show yourselves. Of course I could always visit the Leica store in Munich however that could be expensive. Col Luceo non uro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted December 28, 2012 Share #33 Â Posted December 28, 2012 35/135 on the M4-P i guess but i don't have this camera. Yes that would make sense; 135mm framelines was replaced by 24mm framelines for the digital M8: Â From 35-135mm on M4-P to now 24-35mm on M8 Leica did not think 135mm would be within rangefinder tolerances. Â Also an 28mm keep showing the 28mm framelines... Â The 'new' 24mm lenses brings out 24 and 35mm on M8 Â So 35mm and 135mm on M4-P same as M6... Â BTW IMHO Nikon D3 is definitely not obsolete even for professional usage! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colmac Posted December 28, 2012 Share #34 Â Posted December 28, 2012 Erik, Â Agree D3 is a very usable camera but that doesn't help the addicted. BTW the M4-P is basically an M6 without built-in metering. Â Col Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted December 29, 2012 Share #35 Â Posted December 29, 2012 A lot of cheap secondhand finders will be on the market as soon as the new M is released. Â I currently use a small and cheap Voigtlaender 15mm finder for 15, 21 and 24 lenses (guessing the framing for the 21 and 24). My finder will be on the market as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colmac Posted December 30, 2012 Share #36 Â Posted December 30, 2012 Good point about the new M. I too prefer the uncluttered look and ask myself if it's possible to reasonably guess the picture frame (a la Erwin Puts) when using a 24mm lens with a 28mm frame line - if that's the one shown in the M4-P. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 30, 2012 Share #37 Â Posted December 30, 2012 Little chance i'm afraid. You might wisk to buy a 21mm lens instead or mount a 28/90 bayonet on a 24mm lens. See 3pc 6 Bit Flange Adapter 4 Leica Lens 28 90mm 35mm 50mm | eBay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted December 30, 2012 Share #38 Â Posted December 30, 2012 What I did not see mentioned in John's post with the 21-24-28 OVF is that it has a thumb screw that secures it in place on the flash shoe for those times you put it in your case and pull it back out. Well, designed. I saw one at the Pro Shop-Palm Beach, FL about 6 weeks ago, looked brand new, if anyone is interested. Jim mostly handles Leica. Â I have lost track of how many times I have pulled out my camera with a single FL OVF only to find that it pulled off in my case/bag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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