Leica's advantage?

[earleygallery]

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I'd have to borrow your M9 an 90mm.

[urs0polar]

This has been an interesting thread for me as it has solidified why I like Leica design principles in the first place. Neat.

 

Kasper:

 

Yes, AF is easier, but that doesn't mean it's better. Just different, which is what everyone is trying to say: if you don't like it, don't use it.

 

And as for the M9 vs 5DII shoot out, Kai at DigitalRev has already done it:

 

Beyond all that, I can't understand why our friend Kasper has shelled out somewhere around US $10,000 on an M9 and a lens (90 2.0?) yet refuses to learn how to use it (only using for static subjects doesn't count, sorry), and then comes and winges at us to validate him. In addition, he appears to learn nothing from the experience.

 

Dude if you don't like it, just return it or sell it. It's ok. We all buy the wrong things from time to time.

[gjames9142]

OK, OK, I'm going to take the troll bait if only for my own entertainment.

 

What baffles me most is photo journalism, the very term and genre was defined by people who wouldn't even believe you if told them about an M9. The earliest made with wet plate cameras which had the dynamic range of an etching, the cameras had the ergonomics of a ship and the buffer was at the rate of a few an hour. At best the "kids of those days" had the highly advanced Speed Graphic to work with.

 

What is considered and called "The Golden Age of Photo Journalism" is BECAUSE of the Leica. This is what defined the genre in the way it is still today.

 

Jacques Henri Lartigue pioneered action photography and photos of racing cars with 5x4. He had no problem hand holding what is akin to a tank, compose and focus and image back to front and get the most remarkable images. Robert Capa's photos were OBVIOUSLY ruined by the fact he had such antiquated equipment...

 

As for low light photography Brassai? Weegee?

 

In answer to your questions.

1. My Phase One P65 has the same limited ISO characteristics. It makes the price of the M9 look like an entry level dSLR. Price has nothing to do with it.

2. The buffer is slow but reasonable. If you stop and think about your photo. You feel the moment and look for the shot you will find the buffer is ample for professional work. It is for mine (fast paced fashion). If you don't want to be a photographer and just rattle off a hundred shots and pick the best one later than go ahead and use your dSLR. Perhaps your profession would be better suited as an editor.

3.LCD is sub par, yes. But all you need is the histogram and a reference. It is because you have always relied on that you are not used to trusting your own ability. If you can't rely on your abilities then checking it on the LCD...well it's too late you've already missed the shot and lost the job my friend! Before the days you kids had digital cameras the rest of the world functioned perfectly well with film. The photos that defined the term "photojournalism" were made with film and quite probably an M with even less functions.

4.Dynamic Range is perfectly adequate. You have more Dynamic range than you need. You can be 2 stops under exposed (this is probably the most you'll need in most working environment) and still get a perfectly reasonable image with decent shadow detail. Just don't shoot with the lens cap still on and you'll be fine.

5. I shoot, tracking people, walking towards camera wide open without that much issue. It just takes practice. You brain remembers how quickly to move the barrel the closer they get the more you do it. There are people here who don't even need to check focus. They have used the M for long enough to know what distance they are and what position to move their focus hand at. It's not that different to tracking a fast moving race car with a very slow shutter speed.

6. There aren't any people any people using the camera for reportage? There are many. Research magnum photographers that use them. There are MANY. There are forum users here who does just that.

 

It seems like you have made up your mind dear Kasper so just use use what ever you damn well feel comfortable with. What ever gives you the best results that mirror what is in your head. Really if you feel you get better results with your 5D then great, use it. It's a good camera. The reaction comes when you tell experienced people taking the time to encourage you that effectively they are wrong. At the end of the day use what you want but telling experienced people that the camera can't be used for these purposes and that a dSLR that thinks for you is better is always going to provoke a response.

 

I'll leave you with this poor excuse for an action shot made by a feeble 5x4 plate camera. What a pity it wasn't with a 5D huh? Troll be gone.

 

Small footnote: I had Jacques-Henri as a house guest in Montreal in the early 70's and we had an incredible time. When he left he signed his first Gallimard book to me"pour Geoffrey que j'aime comme un ami d'enfance." I was barely 30. He was just beginning to get a serious following in the US among photographers. I still have slides he made of my young son in the park, which, truth to tell, are like a lot of other snapshots

[Sailronin]

Kasper,

Just stick to the Canon setup, it will do everything you want. You can sell the M9 and get most if not all of your money back.

Leica M series is not as versatile as a DSLR, no one is going to debate that point. What is does, it does very well and many of us enjoy using it.

I shoot with a DSLR (Nikon) and MF (Hassy and Phase One) but my first choice for travel and just wandering around town is always the Leica.

Use what makes you happy and you are comfortable with, no one else's opinion matters one wit.

[Guest Kasper]

And as for the M9 vs 5DII shoot out, Kai at DigitalRev has already done it:

 

I do not see unpredictable movements in this test. And there's only one shot. Now someone coming in your direction and you want to shoot several expressions, which means several shots.

[kdriceman]

An odd thread to say the least..... over a futile issue that has been discussed to death for decades.

 

My car is faster and my girlfriend is prettier. So nah, nah, nah.

 

And now it's become a challenge? An actual duel choosing different weapons?

 

YES!!! Finally this thread is getting interesting. A duel!!! Hopefully someone will video this duel and post it on the forum.... alas, it will have to be a DSLR to do the video because video is not one of the Leica advantages. Not yet anyway.

[Paulus]

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Not always a great level of intelligence, is it? For those who are so busy finding all kind of arguments to make a eh..troll of me ( very polite), I will repeat some of my words, or give it some more explanation:

 

IMHO you are making a " troll" by yourself. All I asked was one photo" Hi I'am Kasper" and you could have convinced al lot of people that you weren't.

Now you wait for days to deliver a photo and you complain that people no longer believe you are for real.

 

It’s a pitty that I don’t kow personally any of you experienced gentlemen. Otherwise I would pay you a visit if that would be allowed, and we would do a couple of tests. Me with the Canon, you with my M9. 90mm, 2,8. But, wait, perhaps something like that is possible. Who dares to take the challenge?

:

 

I gladly would take the challenge. We could meet in Antwerp. Not so far for you since you are living in Belgium. Not so far for me since I live in the Netherlands. If you deliver the photo " Hi I'm Kasper" this evening. Say between now and half past nine ( 9:30 AM EST.) And please also deliver a photo of the ones you shot on sunday ( the date and time will be on the exif for us)

 

Do that and we will shoot it out.

 

I suggest: taking pictures of cars speeding at us, bicycles speeding in our direction and pedestrians, looking us in de face walking towards us.

[Guy2]

Not many people seem to mention how the thing just feels. There's a great deal of pleasure to be found when the tool of a craft does its job in a way that feels right to you. That can of course be a very subjective thing. When I first bought a DSLR, I tried both Canon and Nikon, and my decision was based more on how they felt in my hand, how the controls fell under my fingers, and so on, than anything else. (I went with Nikon.)

 

Now that I think about it, it's possible that the memory of an irritating kid at school, whose parents bought him a top-of-the-range Canon, and who I envied, played some part in this too. But I can't be sure and I can't afford the analysis to find out (I'm saving for my M...)

 

I strongly submit that rangefinders are not for everyone, not just because of Leica prices (though those are an obvious and unfortunate barrier to entry for most) but because they're odd and different and ask a distinct set of skills of the user. They feel different in the hand too.

 

There's an analogy here with anything else that you choose to live with and in which style plays a part: from dining chairs to cars to girlfriends. (Not necessarily in that order, you understand.) You don't necessarily choose these on specifications alone, but on any number of less tangible and more aesthetic levels as well. And those are going to be subjective.

 

This is why people visit showrooms, take test drives, and go on dates

 

Um... I feel like I've wandered off topic somewhat But engaging in photography as a hobby, it makes sense to choose the tool for the job that best suits you, and that doesn't come down entirely to specs. Somewhere in there, there has to be love too The decision to sell the D200 and buy an M8 is one of those decisions that, for me at least, was made more with the heart than the head. Isn't that how it should be?

[Paulus]

Do that and we will shoot it out.

 

I suggest: taking pictures of cars speeding at us, bicycles speeding in our direction and pedestrians, looking us in de face walking towards us.

 

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/nature-wildlife/250150-what-if-cat-refuses-monochrom.html

 

Or shooting young cats, coming fast around the corner.

[earleygallery]

Old shot but as an example, taken with an M2 and 9cm f4 Elmar, ISO 200 film from memory.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/sports-leisure-time/33370-lotus-cortina.html

 

So Kaspar, when are you up for the challenge?

[CalArts 99]

I can't understand why our friend Kasper has shelled out somewhere around US $10,000 on an M9 and a lens (90 2.0?)

 

I bought a second hand M camera with a summicron 50. It disappointed me on the things I mentioned. I think that solidity is less important in a market where every two or three years new developments do appear. So what is in fact the big advantage of Leica? Thanks, Kasper.

 

Thank you for all the answers so far. Don't take me wrong, but today I was in a shop for photography, where I asked the salesman more or less the same thing. He told me this: te M system is very much limited. They say for example that it is a street camera, but that is half the truth. Try to shoot a person walking in your direction with a 90 mm. You use f 2,0 or 2,8 because you want to isolate him. The change that you will get a sharp picture with a M is a matter of luck. Moving subjects with wider lenses are also difficult. A DSLR will do the job perfectly. High ISO? A DSLR half the money of a Leica blows it away. If you need speed, it is the same thing. Buy a M and you will miss a lot of pictures. Greetings, Kasper.

 

Well, the only thing is that when I’m going to spend money on something, and I can choose between different products, I want to know for sure that I spend it on the right thing. Therefore I was happy that the same salesman gave me the opportunity to use a DSLR ( Canon 5D Mark11) with a 70-200 lens for one day. And an old tele elmarit 90. ( they sell some second hand Leica lenses). Now I could compare it with the M9 that I bought. Regards, Kasper.

 

Kasper, you've enjoyed your 15 minutes of fame on the LUF. A full seven pages of it. Members were generous with you at first until you pushed the buttons a bit too much. You clearly knew the answers to your 'concerns' already and so there's no reason now to keep pushing. And you accomplished what you wanted by getting some members tangled up with each other.

 

So, I think it's probably best to move on now. Try another forum. There are other forums like Rangefinderforum.com, etc.. You can go play there.

[urs0polar]

I do not see unpredictable movements in this test. And there's only one shot. Now someone coming in your direction and you want to shoot several expressions, which means several shots.

 

Unfortunately, trolls are very predictable, have only one expression, and yet it (only?) takes us 7 pages to bring them into focus.

[earleygallery]

Another idea for our friend Kasper, come to Copenhagen in October, join in the challenge and we can arrange a 'side challenge' on Saturday morning to see who can get sharp images with your M9/90mm combo.

[brianv]

If you've ever been on a Tire Swing at a Playground, the motion is under user control- not easily predictable by an outside observer.

 

1939_sonnar_LeicaM8 by anachronist1, on Flickr

 

1939_sonnar_LeicaM8_crop by anachronist1, on Flickr

 

I'm sure a competent AF-DSLR could do the same thing.

 

But not with the 70+ year old lens that I used for this shot.

[Ruhayat]

I had a friend who asked me a similar question once. He's used to shooting SLRs, borrowed my M for a weekend, came back and said he didn't understand the attraction of such an antiquated system and started dumping on Leica. My response to him was, if he can't see it, then it's probably not for him. I'm not in the business of evangelising, after all.

 

So I like Brett's comment very much. Use it or don't use it. Makes no whit of a difference to those who do use it. Along the same lines, I get some people who ask why I bother driving an Audi when a Hyundai is just as good. Meh. The answer is: because I can.

 

It's hard not to be all New Agey when it comes to rangefinders but I have observed that people either get it or they don't. It's something to do with having an analogue vs digital brain: some people just can't quite figure out how to tell time on an analogue clock, either. And that's just fine with me.

[Ruhayat]

What I also inderstand is that this forum is a place for a lot of people who are so in love with there Leica, that they hardly can be objective. ( understandable but not correct).

 

What you seem to miss is that a lot of the people here own DSLRs and SLRs as well as other rangefinders as well. Me, I have owned Contax (139Qs), Pentax (MX, ME Super), Olympus (E1, Pen EP1), Canon (5D, 30D), Nikon (D70, D90) and Panasonic (G1, GF1). Now I use a Pentax K5 alongside my two film Ms. It's just that we love us some Leica lurve. Mmmm.

 

Just like you, we also use our DSLRs for the things we know our precious Leica rangefinders can't do.

 

But unlike you, we don't crap on one system just because we can't quite figure it out.

[Guest Kasper]

Just like you, we also use our DSLRs for the things we know our precious Leica rangefinders can't do.

 

That’ right. And I already said that I’m very pleased by the IQ of the M. Let me subjoin: very good lenses, even the second hand 50 is great, I think. Camera is handy and not so heavy as the Canon. Much more simple in use as the C. But when I wrote something about the things the M is not that good in, people reacted in a way suggestinhg that I’m a child, and later a troll. in the meantime pumping themselves up as o so great photographers for who my difficulties with the M are an easy piece of cake. That’s why I came up with the challange.

The conditions are ofcourse the same as of what I wrote about. Leica M. Lens 90 mm. Distance close. Aperture 2,8 and 4,0. Person with fast and unpredictable moving head. Focussuing on the eye. Fast shooting in a row. Also with the 50., of someone moving like the singer. At least lets say thirty pictures. Again: fast shooting, because you want to catch a certain expression.

 

That’s all. No more silly talks about cars, Weegee, or other irralevant things. Or admit: Allright Kasper, your findings on these points of the M are true. Here the Canon or any other fast AF is just better. It was therefore sensible to buy also a DSLR, surely because you also mentioned high ISO. Fort the rest: welcome on the forum, and let’s talk about where the Leica does please you.

 

Best regards, Kasper.

[Lindolfi]

Allright Kasper, your findings on these points of the M are true for you

 

Don't you see it Kasper, you can not say that a camera is capable of something. You can only say that a combination of a photographer and a camera in some situation is capable of something. If that has not become obvious through so many responses and you make this into a challenge between photographers or between camera's you are missing the point completely.

[lct]

Bit of pushing at open doors here no?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Paulus]

 

That’s all. No more silly talks about cars, Weegee, or other irralevant things. Or admit: Allright Kasper, your findings on these points of the M are true. Here the Canon or any other fast AF is just better. It was therefore sensible to buy also a DSLR, surely because you also mentioned high ISO. Fort the rest: welcome on the forum, and let’s talk about where the Leica does please you.

 

Best regards, Kasper.

 

 

 

Because you did not react to my answer from gestern 23:41 this reaction from me:

 

 

Kasper,

 

the last few days I was really fascinated by your appearance. But not anymore. You proved to me , that you are not a Leica user. I believe this forum was mend for Leica users to talk about something they admire: The Leica.

 

Here below I have collect the reaction of you and me ( and I'll make some side remarks ). A good reader will see, that your are not telling the truth about having a Leica . I could be wrong. This is my opinion, but I am now a little bored by you.

 

We ( I hope I'am not speaking for myself ) admire the Leica M camera system for our own reasons. But as somebody already said. We are not preaching a gospel, so nobody has to listen to us!

If somebody like you would step on my porch and was talking like you did in my face, I would kindly and politely say he had to walk on and leave me in piece with my own happiness.

But you won't. Because you won't, you will get reactions of a kind. I think that's what you want. Obvious you are not satisfied with something, maybe with your live and you tried to share the feeling by making others miserable. Sorry but that won't work in this forum I say for myself. I think we are to happy with our gear.

 

So I suggest you find help, in solving your personal problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the gathered text the reader will find it here:

 

 

21.09.2012, 19:59

 

 

Kasper:

I bought a second hand M camera with a summicron 50. It disappointed me on the things I mentioned. I think that solidity is less important in a market where every two or three years new developments do appear. So what is in fact the big advantage of Leica?

 

 

Paulus:

What camera did you buy?

 

( IMHO normally a person is very glad , that he’s bought a beautiful camera like the M9 and would mention this the moment the opportunity arrived. You did not! )

 

23.09.2012, 20:23

 

Paulus:

 

I think Kasper has no M9 , that he just made one up. Of course I could be wrong. If he simply proves he has one by making a photo with his M9 of a sheet of paper: with the words " hi I'am Kasper " on it. I would gladly make my excuses for my lack of trust, but for the moment, he seems to me an anonymous ghost with the name Kasper.

 

 

 

 

Gestern, 01:29

 

Kasper:

 

Finally: someone asked me to post a picture with the text: I am Kasper. I will do that the next days. More than one. At 1600 ISO, Leica and Canon. And 2500. Written on a dark grey curtain or something.

 

( Until now we have seen nothing. Not even a test shot! )

 

 

 

 

Gestern, 08:03

 

Paulus:

 

A piece of white paper with the letters on it will be enough as long as we can see the EXIF of the camera.

 

We all know de difference between a Leica M9 and Canon DII.

 

Further more, the delay makes me think, that you don't have a M9 because otherwise, it would not be such a problem just to upload the picture on a sunday. Now you have to wait until the shop is open to make a picture in the shop or so...

but since you have made beautiful pictures with it this sunday, it would be nice to see one of these also.

 

 

 

 

Gestern, 23:41

 

Zitat von Kasper:

Not always a great level of intelligence, is it? For those who are so busy finding all kind of arguments to make a eh..troll of me ( very polite), I will repeat some of my words, or give it some more explanation:

 

 

Paulus:

 

IMHO you are making a " troll" by yourself. All I asked was one photo" Hi I'am Kasper" and you could have convinced al lot of people that you weren't.

Now you wait for days to deliver a photo and you complain that people no longer believe you are for real.

 

 

 

Zitat von Kasper

It’s a pitty that I don’t kow personally any of you experienced gentlemen. Otherwise I would pay you a visit if that would be allowed, and we would do a couple of tests. Me with the Canon, you with my M9. 90mm, 2,8. But, wait, perhaps something like that is possible. Who dares to take the challenge?

:

 

 

 

Paulus:

 

I gladly would take the challenge. We could meet in Antwerp. Not so far for you since you are living in Belgium. Not so far for me since I live in the Netherlands. If you deliver the photo " Hi I'm Kasper" this evening. Say between now and half past nine ( 9:30 AM EST.) And please also deliver a photo of the ones you shot on sunday ( the date and time will be on the exif for us)

 

Do that and we will shoot it out.

 

I suggest: taking pictures of cars speeding at us, bicycles speeding in our direction and pedestrians, looking us in de face walking towards us.

 

 

Reaction Kasper on the above:................... None!

 

 

 

 

Goodbye Caspar, but not " so long" !