captain Posted September 14, 2012 Share #1 Â Posted September 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) With the advent of readily available adapters Im considering spreading some lenses a bit further that dont see much use. I have a pre-ASPH Elmarit M that sits unused alot of the time and I have a nice Leicaflex SL in its original box with no lenses in R mount. I thought maybe if sell off the Elmarit and get myself a R 21mm f4 SA with an adapter and can use the lens on both systems. Ive never really used it at 2.8 so the speed decrease doesnt bother me and given the difference in value of the M and R 21's with the left over money get myself another lens not so wide in R mount just to get me started in a new system. Silly idea? Is the 21 f4 R nowhere near close to the Elmarit so will loose out in image quality? Is it simply to big to use on an M? I dont really need RF coupling at that focal length. Just thought I would bounce the idea off you guys in case there is something I hadnt considered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 Hi captain, Take a look here Leica R 21mm f4 Vs Elmarit 21mm f2.8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted September 14, 2012 Share #2  Posted September 14, 2012 The 21 f/4 R is close to the 21 Elmarit pre-ASPH in center resolution. It is lower in contrast (more air/glass surfaces), and tends to have "streakier" blur in the corners due to being a retrofocus design from the 1960's when lens designers were still learning how to handle "retrofocus". The 21 M is 10 years more advanced.  One oddity to IQ is the bokeh, since the 21 R has only 4 aperture blades, leading to squared-off blur circles and "choppy" bokeh.  See the lead image (21 R on 5D2) in my current magazine article on wildflowers at: ColoradoSeen - Home  You can see little squares in the blurred highlights in the brown water in the center of the image. On the plus side, the 21 R focuses so close that it actually CAN blur backgrounds (20 cm or 8 inches from the image plane, or about 5 inches from the front element.)  "Too big" is a matter of taste - but the 21 R's diameter (75mm) is only a mm or so smaller than the total height of an M body. And the adapter will add 14mm or so to the overall length, making it bigger than the Leica 21 f/1.4.  IMHO - if you want a cheaper, slower 21 for your M, the 21 Cosina/Voigtlander makes more sense. Then use the difference to buy something for your Leicaflex that actually makes use of its advantages over the M cameras (a long and/or fast telephoto, or a macro). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Posted September 14, 2012 Author Share #3 Â Posted September 14, 2012 Thanks for your reply. The 21 f4 being a four bladed lens was certainly something that I wasnt expecting so it was worth asking the question to learn something new. Although I would never have picked the squarish highlights without them being pointed out so its not objectionable. I really liked the wild-flower series. Were other shots in that series shot with the 21 R? I was more considering a lens that was usable both systems so maybe get more value from it. Not really wanting to get a Voigtlander 21mm on top of that having sold one previously. I like to try some different lenses in the R line which I have never dabbled with before. After buying a 21 R there would be enough money left over to get the lens I bought the SL for the 400 f6.8 having being inspired by Doug Herr's wonderful wildlife shots and getting something in between as well maybe a 60 or 100mm Macro since the M isnt that good for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted September 14, 2012 Share #4 Â Posted September 14, 2012 If you do go for a 100 Macro then my advice would be to spend the extra to get the APO-Macro because the difference is massive. The 100/2.8 APO-Macro-Elmarit-R is legendary and reputedly one of the best macro lenses ever built by anyone in 135 mm format. Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 15, 2012 Share #5  Posted September 15, 2012 Yes the Super-Angulon-R 21/4 is a sharp lens in the center but flares a lot and edges & corners are rather soft on my 5D. Vignetting is not negligible either. The overall brightness of the 5D's VF at f/4 is similar to the same at f/5.6 with my Zuiko 21/2. For a serious review on the 5D, see Leica Super Angulon-R 21mm f/4 (S8.5) Lens Review. For a comparo with the Skopar 21/4 size wise see below. The latter is a better lens for me but i have no experience with it on the M9. For a good review of the Skopar on the M9, see J.M Sepulchre page 136. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/187875-leica-r-21mm-f4-vs-elmarit-21mm-f28/?do=findComment&comment=2113506'>More sharing options...
adan Posted September 16, 2012 Share #6 Â Posted September 16, 2012 I really liked the wild-flower series. Were other shots in that series shot with the 21 R? Â Yes. The picture of the Marsh Marigold (above the map) and the "wall" of red and yellow flowers in front of a beige rock ridge. Both needed the 21-R close-focus ability plus the wide field of view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share #7 Â Posted September 16, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes. The picture of the Marsh Marigold (above the map) and the "wall" of red and yellow flowers in front of a beige rock ridge. Both needed the 21-R close-focus ability plus the wide field of view. Â Nice. What lens was used for the bumblebee shot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 16, 2012 Share #8 Â Posted September 16, 2012 75 Summilux on M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share #9 Â Posted September 17, 2012 Yes the Super-Angulon-R 21/4 is a sharp lens in the center but flares a lot and edges & corners are rather soft on my 5D. Vignetting is not negligible either. The overall brightness of the 5D's VF at f/4 is similar to the same at f/5.6 with my Zuiko 21/2. For a serious review on the 5D, see Leica Super Angulon-R 21mm f/4 (S8.5) Lens Review. For a comparo with the Skopar 21/4 size wise see below. The latter is a better lens for me but i have no experience with it on the M9. For a good review of the Skopar on the M9, see J.M Sepulchre page 136. Â LCT I dont suppose you have ever used that 21mm SA on a rangefinder? The lens isnt as large as I expected beside the tiny Voigtlander. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 17, 2012 Share #10  Posted September 17, 2012 The pic above is not very fair for the Skopar which hood is in contrary to the SA's. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/187875-leica-r-21mm-f4-vs-elmarit-21mm-f28/?do=findComment&comment=2115307'>More sharing options...
captain Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share #11 Â Posted September 17, 2012 The pic above is not very fair for the Skopar which hood is in contrary to the SA's. Â The hood does add some size. What do you think of the 21 SA? Is the Voigtlander that much better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 17, 2012 Share #12 Â Posted September 17, 2012 Objectively, the Skopar has (much) less flare, less vignetting and more sharpness on edges and corners than the SA, but its minimum subject distance is 0.5metre vs 0.2metre for the SA. Subjectively, i find the Skopar very close to the Elmarit-M 21/2.8 asph that i own as well. The Elmarit is faster of course and a bit sharper at f/4 but otherwise i don't see much difference to be honest. The Skopar is really a very good lens but it may suffer from sample variation like other CV lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 18, 2012 Share #13  Posted September 18, 2012 SA 21/4 & CV 21/4 with hoods on. The SA does not seem to be supported in the new M's menu BTW. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-r-leica-flex/161537-r-solution-more-details-17.html#post2182839 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/187875-leica-r-21mm-f4-vs-elmarit-21mm-f28/?do=findComment&comment=2116692'>More sharing options...
adan Posted September 18, 2012 Share #14 Â Posted September 18, 2012 The lens isnt as large as I expected beside the tiny Voigtlander. Â Also keep in mind the 21 R requires an adapter about as thick as the rear lens cap - so comparing the two lenses both with lens caps on is misleading. Â See a picture of the new digital "M" with its R-M adapter for an idea of how much extra depth to expect. Â http://3.static.img-dpreview.com/files/news/6148955073/M-5.jpg?v=1584 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted September 19, 2012 Share #15  Posted September 19, 2012 I use the VC 21 with the optional rectangular hood. Larger to carry, but likely better flare control, and certainly better protection. With the "pinch cap" on the lens inside the hood, the VC 21 finder rests in the hood in my bag - so a convenient place to carry it. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/187875-leica-r-21mm-f4-vs-elmarit-21mm-f28/?do=findComment&comment=2118468'>More sharing options...
lct Posted September 19, 2012 Share #16  Posted September 19, 2012 Same with the 12518 rubber hood of the Summicron 40/2 for Leica CL. For use with crop cams only. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/187875-leica-r-21mm-f4-vs-elmarit-21mm-f28/?do=findComment&comment=2118520'>More sharing options...
captain Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share #17 Â Posted September 22, 2012 Thanks for the replies so far. I have had the Voigtlander before and didnt really want to go back to it again at this stage I was more wanting to hear about the viability of using the 21mm F4 R SA as a dual purpose lens. Im getting the impression its not a favoured lens though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 22, 2012 Share #18  Posted September 22, 2012 Who knows how it will render on the next "M"? It will still flare a lot but flare is a problem one can live with fortunately, otherwise some Leica lenses like Summilux-M 35/1.4 pre-asph or Tele-Elmarit-M 90/2.8 would not have the success they have. Clean SAs can be had easily for less than €800 nowadays. I would buy one if i were interested as you seem to be. It won't be difficult to resell if need be. Beware that the SA is not listed amongst R-Lenses supported in the "M"'s menu though (http://tinyurl.com/92ehqwy, page 20). I don't see why it should not fit at first glance but you could wish to ask Leica about possible compatibility issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 22, 2012 Share #19 Â Posted September 22, 2012 Thanks for the replies so far. I have had the Voigtlander before and didnt really want to go back to it again at this stage I was more wanting to hear about the viability of using the 21mm F4 R SA as a dual purpose lens. Im getting the impression its not a favoured lens though? Â I am not a R user, but having read much about the Leitz 21s, I tend to think that the 21 f4 R was appreciated at its times but hasn't surged to one of the iconic Leitz lenses... let'say... thinking of the story of 21s, that in the RF line the 2nd 21 (SA 3,4 - which was also the 1st 21 for R) was a significant improvement on the previous 21 (f4 from Schneider) , whilst, in R line the 2nd 21 (the retrofocus f4) was mainly a lens that solved the significant problem of using the 3,4 on a Leicaflex body (it needed mirror flip up and VF viewing) : but, repeat, I haven't personal experience with R. Thinking of R wides... why don't you give a look at the Elmarit19mm f 2,8 - 2nd version ? Seems to have been always much praised, and it's rather small to stand fine onto a M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share #20  Posted September 22, 2012 Who knows how it will render on the next "M"? It will still flare a lot but flare is a problem one can live with fortunately, otherwise some Leica lenses like Summilux-M 35/1.4 pre-asph or Tele-Elmarit-M 90/2.8 would not have the success they have. Clean SAs can be had easily for less than €800 nowadays. I would buy one if i were interested as you seem to be. It won't be difficult to resell if need be. Beware that the SA is not listed amongst R-Lenses supported in the "M"'s menu though (http://tinyurl.com/92ehqwy, page 20). I don't see why it should not fit at first glance but you could wish to ask Leica about possible compatibility issues.  I should mention I dont use digital so this would be a film only exercise. I hope the new M doesnt drive up prices though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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