jaapv Posted May 30, 2012 Share #41 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why is everyone so obsessed with Leica bringing out a CSC? There are loads of great CSCs already out there which are more than adequate for any photographer. There's no need for Leica to bring out one of these cameras - forget about the red dot and go look at what is on offer - you should be able to find something you like if you want a CSC.Please direct me - I have been unable to find one that fitted my requirements... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Hi jaapv, Take a look here AP interview with Dr Kaufmann. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
cocker Posted May 30, 2012 Share #42 Posted May 30, 2012 "That is not the only alternative. He could simply have said: "We have a wonderful new digital B&W, etc, etc, but Leica has a long film tradition, we continue to believe in film, and we still sell excellent film cameras." I don't see how that would either be false, out of touch, or offensive to anyone. There is an element of leadership wanting here as well. Where would Apple be now without Steve Jobs' "Reality Distortion Field"? If any company should have the vision and the courage to stand up for film as an artistic medium, and for its film cameras as mechanical masterpieces, against a "reality" of film-doomsdayers, it should be Leica. Perhaps what the "end of film" comment betrays, in the end, is the company's insecurity about the MM as a product. As with most insecurities, the answer is always to put down something else, usually whatever makes you feel insecure. Even the matter of dress and presentation, the cool black T, betrays an insecurity against the claim that a B&W camera is deeply uncool. At least they kept Seal relatively out of the way. The whole product launch in Berlin, at least from this distance, and with the "end of film" comment firmly in my mind, was handled in a shockingly unprofessional way." Al, Thanks - you have articulated my thoughts better than I could have put them. this whole MM and "end of film" episode has made me think hard about Leica and where it is heading. I suspect I have already bought my last Leica product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted May 30, 2012 Share #43 Posted May 30, 2012 This made me smile, Hema of all places. Was one of the two shops you visited Hafo down in the centre? I haven't tried 1-hour developing on a Saturday there but it would be good to know of any restriction. Cheers Philip Indeed Hafo and Fotografie Americaine (both in the Wagenstraat). I am struggling to recall if it was a saturday or a sunday, possibly the latter as I recall being surprised to find Hafo open, although they are occasionally. Anyway the lowly Hema is fine for development, fast, efficient - quality is fine IMHO (see here and here) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted May 30, 2012 Share #44 Posted May 30, 2012 I'm another that doesn't follow why some people are offended by the reported comment about film. Leica Camera doesn't drive the film market. If the film market didn't collapse they might still be a niche maker of rangefinder film cameras never forced to shift to digital at all. They have said previously that they will make film M's as long as there is sufficient demand. Tooling and development are obviously no consideration; parts supply could be of course. Separately also said that they are selling all that they make (into the Japanese and Chinese markets presumably). But some perspective is called for in all of this . As far back as 2009, Leica Camera was suggesting production numbers like 100 film M's TOTAL (M7 &MP) per month for the whole world. Very clearly those numbers are irrelevant to the survival of film. If people are passionate about film M's do what I did, buy an M7 (or MP) again and shoot it when you want without displacing your M9 or M8. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #45 Posted May 30, 2012 M9reno's staement that "My problem with the "end of film" is not so much with what was said, but with who said it and why. That a business should try to sell new products by consciously (or even unconsciously) alienating even a fraction of its customers, and appear to turn its back on a powerful part of its own history, seems insane to me" seems, if he will forgive me saying so, to be wanting of some good reason. Admittedly reason has been known to fail me on numerous occasions, but never (so far) while speaking on behalf of a major company. Nor has it failed me so much that I might consider a T-shirt an acceptable type of formal attire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #46 Posted May 30, 2012 Leica Camera doesn't drive the film market. . Geoff - I agree entirely with you on this point. But the "end of film" comment was not made in the board room, while discussing profitability or strategy. It was made in public, in the midst of releasing a new product, and to a worldwide audience of committed clients and followers, including Leica film users. It might make good sense to the accounting department, or to assembled shareholders, but it is simply a slap in the face, for all the reasons I've given, to some of the company's clients. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted May 30, 2012 Share #47 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe he was showing off the new Leica T-shirt - special without logo/red dot edition of course. That would not be appropriate when introducing the M9M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #48 Posted May 30, 2012 Maybe he was showing off the new Leica T-shirt - special without logo/red dot edition of course. That would not be appropriate when introducing the M9M. Indeed, pure stealth. Had we not been told, who would have known this was the head of the company? He would have passed totally unperceived as a backstage assistant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2012 Share #49 Posted May 30, 2012 It is called defensiveness, Geoff. I'm another that doesn't follow why some people are offended by the reported comment about film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 30, 2012 Share #50 Posted May 30, 2012 “Film is nearly dead” isn’t so much a prediction but a statement of fact. Yes, film continues to be available and will probably continue to be available even when the major vendors should eventually abandon film for good, just in much smaller volumes and with less products to choose from. Also you might be able to pick up an analog camera for years to come, on the used market if need be. But then you can still buy a horse to draw your carriage even when the importance of the horse drawn carriage as a mode of transportation is practically nil, in the first world anyway. Even for Leica, a camera vendor catering for niche markets, the importance of film declines. 35 mm film will probably continue to be supported on a low level, if just because it is so intricately entwined with the company’s past, but from a business perspective alone this would be difficult to justify. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 30, 2012 Share #51 Posted May 30, 2012 ...no point spending money when you tell me that film will be unavailable in a few more years!!!!!!!! Except of course that's not what he said <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 30, 2012 Share #52 Posted May 30, 2012 Where would Apple be now without Steve Jobs' "Reality Distortion Field"? Still supporting floppy disks and SCSI, I suppose? Steve Jobs was notorious for making short shrift with technologies he believed to be obsolete, even when many of his customers thought otherwise and would have clung to those technologies if given the chance. You should be glad that Dr. Kaufmann isn’t Steve Jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted May 30, 2012 Share #53 Posted May 30, 2012 Thank you Hurr Dr Kaufmann, I will take up your advise concerning the future of film, so I will sell of my M leicas as there is still a market for them. As for my R Cameras and lenses I will continue to use them with film untill ?, as for the R lenses, attached to Canon are an excellent combination. As for your overpriced Digital cameras, not interested, you can keep them. At this weekend photografic show here in Melbourne, Leicas were not on display. Most likely the organisers requested photografic equipment, not special editions or expensive novelty items. Long live film. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christoph13 Posted May 30, 2012 Share #54 Posted May 30, 2012 Someone bring this guy back to Earth! We are trying to but you just won't listen No, seriously, there are many very successful companies out there that would simply refuse to follow the premise "the customer is always king". A nice shopping experience, yes, competent support, yes, but have the customers will decide the company's future strategy? No way. First to think of is Apple, but there are many others, too. And before you formulate a rebuttal along the lines how much customers like the new products, we are talking about introducing a new concept often against the will of the (most vocal) customers. That they may turn into loyal supporters again once the new product has convinced and educated them does not count against the argument. How many people said the iPhone would be a disastrous failure for Apple? Or the iPad thereafter? If film does not sell (well), Dr. Kaufmann will have to send a signal to the shareholders that Leica are watching and ready to pull the plug once the time comes. And that's precisely how I read his statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2012 Share #55 Posted May 30, 2012 :confused:What advice? He just stated the sitiuation as it is and seems to be developing. It will be more difficult to obtain film in the future, possibly within the decade and the infrastructure supporting it will continue to shrink. Does that denigrate the users or forbid them to use film? I should think not. It is fine to be happy to use a medium, even admirable, but to engage in sniping from the trenches because reality does not suit is just a bit silly. Thank you Hurr Dr Kaufmann, I will take up your advise concerning the future of film, so I will sell of my M leicas as there is still a market for them. As for my R Cameras and lenses I will continue to use them with film untill ?, as for the R lenses, attached to Canon are an excellent combination. As for your overpriced Digital cameras, not interested, you can keep them. At this weekend photografic show here in Melbourne, Leicas were not on display. Most likely the organisers requested photografic equipment, not special editions or expensive novelty items. Long live film. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted May 30, 2012 Share #56 Posted May 30, 2012 If film does not sell (well), Dr. Kaufmann will have to send a signal to the shareholders that Leica are watching and ready to pull the plug once the time comes. And that's precisely how I read his statement. Up until now, Leica have always maintained that they will continue to make their film cameras as long as there is demand for them (note - they didn't specify how much demand). So, Dr Kaufmann is now talking up the demise of film, to harm the sales of M film cameras, so that he can change their position and withdraw them from the market? Seems unlikely. Why doesn't he simply announce that Leica are ceasing production of film cameras and be done with it? "Film is dead, but we still sell (very expensive) film cameras". Odd strategy for a business IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christoph13 Posted May 30, 2012 Share #57 Posted May 30, 2012 I think it is the other way around. From a purely economic point of view what you are suggesting is exactly what Leica should do. Apple would have long abandoned film. As a company that created 35mm film and built cameras around it, they are keeping them around. But the signal to the shareholders and perhaps the remaining film enthusiasts is that even so Leica are monitoring the situation and will be reacting if the demand drops too low. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted May 30, 2012 Share #58 Posted May 30, 2012 “Film is nearly dead” A qualification like that reminds me of the entry just under the entry for Eccentrica Gallumbits: Mostly harmless. I guess we can argue until the cows come home and leave again, and it's been done in many threads here before, but what's the point. I plan to use my film cameras as long as there's film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 30, 2012 Share #59 Posted May 30, 2012 :confused:Why should they cease production of film cameras? The technology and production tools have long been written off so each camera brings in a dollop of profit. At 4000 Euro a go ( not counting a-la-carte supplements ) that cannot be uneconomical. I suggest we take the remark as spoken, just an assessment of the current situation projected into the future. Up until now, Leica have always maintained that they will continue to make their film cameras as long as there is demand for them (note - they didn't specify how much demand). So, Dr Kaufmann is now talking up the demise of film, to harm the sales of M film cameras, so that he can change their position and withdraw them from the market? Seems unlikely. Why doesn't he simply announce that Leica are ceasing production of film cameras and be done with it? "Film is dead, but we still sell (very expensive) film cameras". Odd strategy for a business IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 30, 2012 Share #60 Posted May 30, 2012 :confused:Why should they cease production of film cameras? The technology and production tools have long been written off so each camera brings in a dollop of profit. At 4000 Euro a go ( not counting a-la-carte supplements ) that cannot be uneconomical. The fact that they continue to produce the cameras while announcing the company's acknowledgement of the "end of fim," seems (is?) rather unethical. Why would you try to flog a product in whose future you don't believe? Why profit from the sale of expensive cameras to last "for a lifetime" (I believe this is still the language being used in MP marketing), that the user won't be able to run as desired in just five years' time? Sounds like they need to get their marketing story straight over at Solms, and do a bit of soul-searching as well. The message that emanated from Berlin, at the expense of the "too cool for you" image, was rather confusing, and (dare I say it again) unprofessional. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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