larry Posted March 6, 2007 Share #21 Â Posted March 6, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Somehow this thread seems to have drifted away from the original subject. Â Jaap, Â You're right. To get back on topic, I've noticed that my shutter (since loading 1.092) seems to have a shorter cycle and there's absolutely no increase in shutter lag, as some have speculated. My camera's low serial number 310024X would lead me to believe that it was an unsold first gen returned to the factory for the upgrade. I purchased it at the end of December. I don't have a later model to compare it against. Â Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 6, 2007 Posted March 6, 2007 Hi larry, Take a look here Shutter Upgrade?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
xrogers Posted March 6, 2007 Share #22 Â Posted March 6, 2007 You can bet that not just Leica, but all camera companies would love few things more than to eliminate the most complex, expensive mechanical part from their digital cameras. When it can be done, it will be done in short order. Â If the shutter is changing, that's a good thing---active tweeking of all parts of the camera will only make it better. Â Until later, Â Clyde Rogers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peggers Posted March 6, 2007 Share #23 Â Posted March 6, 2007 Ok slightly off the original topic but to answer the question - why do we even need a shutter: the answer is because of the use of a CCD style sensor. Â In a CCD there is a single amplifier/converter to get the digital signal from all the photosites. For the purposes of this explanation imagine we simply have a single line of pixels and that we are about to read out the values after the photo has been taken. Here's what happens: 1. The first site, nearest the amplifier has its level amplified then converted to a digital value. 2. The charge is now depleted in this photosite. 3. The charge from the second photosite is transferred into the first, and the third into the second, and the forth into the third, and so on. In effect the we're shifting the electrons in each photosite down by one. 4. Now we loop back to 1, and continue until all the photosite have been read out. Â This is where the device gets its name from: the Charge Coupled Device. The shutter has to be closed when this process goes on - else more light would enter each site. One of the advantages of the CCD is that the single amp can be highly optimised, and there is not need to match multiple amps, as opposed to the CMOS, in which there can be more amps that can be hard to build with identical properties to give smooth output. Â Remember the Nikon D200 which had some banding problems at the start of its life? Although this used a CCD style sensor it had two amps, for faster readout. The problem came when these weren't perfected matched against one another. Â Hard for me to explain in a few lines but there is an excellent paper here should you wish to read more. Scroll to page 6 to skip to the shutter issue! Â Hope this helps. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
booggerg Posted March 6, 2007 Share #24 Â Posted March 6, 2007 You know, I can't figure that one out either. No live preview on larger sensors I can understand, cooling problems etc. But switching it on for a fraction of a second? But it seems all camera makers do it this way on large sensors. Â The new Canon 1D MK3 has a live preview function. It is also a 1.3x crop sensor. Â The Olympus, Panasonic, and Leica 4/3 SLRs all have live preview function. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted March 6, 2007 Share #25 Â Posted March 6, 2007 I sent my camera to Solms on Dec. 8 to get the streaking problem fixed; I got it back in mid-January, and as far as I could tell, nothing had changed about the shutter (or at least nothing I noticed.) Now that my camera's going back to Solms for the second time, with the non-functioning trigger/LCD problem, I'd be a little annoyed if it turned out to be a shutter upgrade that I didn't get. Whatever this problem is, however, it somehow involves the shutter or the switch that activates it, whether that problem is mechanical/electrical or in firmware. Â JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share #26 Â Posted March 6, 2007 I don't think it is a real upgrade, I think it is ongoing development implemented on newer camera's, not on the electronic/ electrical side but on the mechanical side. But who can be sure? It is speculation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
808 Posted March 6, 2007 Share #27 Â Posted March 6, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The new Canon 1D MK3 has a live preview function. It is also a 1.3x crop sensor. It also only takes about 15 minutes before the sensor overheats and the camera shuts down the live preview to cool off, at least according to the Canon rep in this video: photo-i news - Canon 2007 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmuck Posted March 6, 2007 Share #28 Â Posted March 6, 2007 Hmmm. LCD...Has anybody got this instant review feature switched on? I find it blinds me when I shoot in low light: click (or now: click-click ) and a flash in your left eye. I guess one needs a place to look at menu's and things, but the bottom of the camera would have served, as far as I'm concerned. Â Â Jaapv, how on earth do you hold your camera? I'm a "left eye focuser" so if I have the LCD preview on I do get a flash in my RIGHT eye. How do you hold the camera so that the LCD illumination is into into your LEFT eye:eek: ? Â c. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share #29  Posted March 6, 2007 Jaapv, how on earth do you hold your camera? I'm a "left eye focuser" so if I have the LCD preview on I do get a flash in my RIGHT eye. How do you hold the camera so that the LCD illumination is into into your LEFT eye:eek: ? c.  Sorry, my right eye. I'm a dentist. I'm used to standing in front of the patient and calling his right (=my left) the righthand side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmuck Posted March 6, 2007 Share #30 Â Posted March 6, 2007 Phew, I thought maybe there was an a la carte version out with the view finder on the other side! <grin> Â c. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 7, 2007 Share #31  Posted March 7, 2007 Why is the shutter necessary? Why can't the camera be ready to capture whatever is on the sensor at the moment a circuit is closed? Because the sensor used in the M8 (as in most DSLRs) is a full frame transfer (FFT) CCD. Compact digicams generally use interline transfer CCDs which allow for the implementation of an electronic shutter. Where an FFT CCD uses most of the available area per pixel for capturing light and accumulating electrons, an interline transfer CCD can transfer the accumlated charge from each pixel into a storage unit that is shielded from light. A CCD of the interline transfer type is less sensitive because of its lower fill factor; its dynamic range is more limited as well. That’s the price you have to pay for having an electronic shutter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted March 7, 2007 Share #32 Â Posted March 7, 2007 Bill, the shutter noise thing had me wondering, also. I have an LX-1 in which you can go into the menu and turn the shutter noise offif you so desire. I think there are actually three choices for shutter noise. If a small digital point & shoot can do it, why not a $5K digital rangefinder? Â But, heck, I'm still waiting for my M8 so I don't even know what the darn thing sounds like. Yes, I played the shutter sound on dpreview but it's not the same as having the thing pressed up against your eyeball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted March 7, 2007 Share #33  Posted March 7, 2007 Has it crossed anyones mind that the change in shutter may have something to do with the failures with the LCD going down and the lockups. Seriously not sure about this but the more I think about it , it makes you wonder why it is there  I thought Leica had said that they did it to increase the accuracy, not to change the failure rate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hektor Posted March 7, 2007 Share #34 Â Posted March 7, 2007 Wait for the M9 ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdann Posted March 7, 2007 Share #35 Â Posted March 7, 2007 I can detect absolutely no difference in the shutter sound after upgrading to l.092. My camera is # 31019XX, second generation which I received on 1/29/07 and I have had absolutely no problems. I have a M7 which I have always loved but I do not see any need for an advance lever. Cheers, Dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Olof Posted March 7, 2007 Share #36 Â Posted March 7, 2007 An electronic "activation -capture" would save a whole lot of parts -- AND be silent. We deserve this (I am adding it to the very long list of things I deserve). Â than you wont get the short shutter speeds or the chip has to be so expensive that you wont get a Leica for EUR 4100,- Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 7, 2007 Share #37 Â Posted March 7, 2007 you get a Leica for EUR 4100,- Â It's a bargain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted March 7, 2007 Share #38 Â Posted March 7, 2007 Bill, Â About that "very long list of things" you "deserve," I wonder if you'd mind posting it (on a new thread because of space considerations.) I want to compare it to my list to see if I've left anything out. !:^) Â This could start a very popular thread. Â Best, Â Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gverdon Posted March 7, 2007 Share #39  Posted March 7, 2007 (...) Gimme a silent shutter.  Would you exchange your M8 for my D2? I can assure you that you'll get the silent shutter you deserve.  Gérald Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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