New Summicron

[Fgcm]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It is not overkill. It turns the M9 into a medium format camera. Living proof of a recent discussion on this forum that it is not just the sensor, but the combination of lens and sensor that makes the final quality.

 

Jaapv it right to the point: This is a step up into medium format quality.

 

Nikon did the same with D800.

 

Interesting.

 

Fgcm

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[spylaw4]

You have been helpful in this regard before. Please explain how 18MP is medium format.

.

 

18Mp compressed file: 36Mp uncompressed file: IIRC select in menu just like M9.

 

Now whether you consider 36Mp to be medium format sized is your choice.

[01af]

... there are two things to complain about [...]

 

• [...]
  
• [...]
  

Actually it's three things:

 

• No useful hood, not even as an accessory at additional cost.
  

[lars_bergquist]

This is an old project. It is well known that in the 1990's, a design study was made for an aspherical 50mm Summicron. On paper, this new design delivered very high performance where even the computed MTF curve for 40lpm wide open did never drop below 50% – and that is exactly what is claimed for the new Summicron.

 

The decision was made however to discontinue the project, because the drastically increased cost of the lens would not be proportionate to the performance increase. A 50mm Summicron must be a mainstay M lens, so it must be reasonable as a marketing proposition. Instead, the decision was made to radically redesign the 50mm Summilux, as this would bring a far more significant improvement. To my mind, that was the right decision to make.

 

But in this age of special event hype and internet hysteria, the definition of 'reasonable' may well have been changed beyond recognition. Also, as was amply shown during the 1930's, savage inequality in incomes and social rights is good for the super-luxury market. Here in Europe, in the U.S.A. and in China. So Mr Karbe did get his dream lens at last.

 

From now on, we know what kind of people Leica design and produce for. It is not for us.

 

But in order to maintain one's position in the superbling segment, it is not enough just to offer superexpensive products. This was not how Leica made its reputation. It was made by offering serious and innovative products for working photographers. That btw was how Max Berek saw it. Without that serious reputation, Leica would never have made it into the high-bling sector. And without it, Leica will slowly slip out of it again, down amongst the purveyors of the golden wristwatches with cheap electronic innards flaunted by small-time gangsters in seedy suburbs that I will not name here – you find them in every country.

 

Is this the new Leica Way? We'll see at the photokina. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I have the Leica lenses I have. And, yes, the M9 I have. And remember that the 1930's were followed by the 1940's.

 

The old man from the Berek Age

[lars_bergquist]

18Mp compressed file: 36Mp uncompressed file: IIRC select in menu just like M9.

 

Now whether you consider 36Mp to be medium format sized is your choice.

 

Nonsense. The M9P has exactly as many sensor pixel sites as the M9plain: 18.5 million. That sets the absolute resolution limit. The image file's size in megabits has precious little to do with that limit. Brian, you must learn the difference between megapixels and megabytes.

 

Now I have always claimed that the M9 (yes, the plain one) does produce imagery that in the age of film was possible only with a medium format camera – and I did not mean 6x6! I worked a lot with medium format cameras in those days. And this is still true. But in the digital world, a 24x36mm sensor will not beat a medium format sensor using the same basic technology, because that technology can be applied to a larger sensor surface with a proportionately larger pixel count. A bloated file will not compensate for that, because obviously, a medium format file can be bloated even more!

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

[jaapv]

The technical explanation is to be found on Sean Reid’s site.

Lars, you will be able to buy an old type Summicron in the future. This lens is NOT a replacement, but an addition to the range.

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Actually it's three things:

 

• No useful hood, not even as an accessory at additional cost.
   
   
  

 

How do you know? That design is still under development, with at least two versions of sliding hood that I saw last night.

[jaapv]

 

Supposedly this lens combined with the M Monochrome has much higher resolution.

The photographs that convinced me were 100 cm wide prints taken with the M9. And believe me, the guys standing next to me were guys that know ten times more than I do. But yes, Leica told me that the grounds for the executive decision to go ahead with this lens was indeed the M9M, as it shows up the faults of even the best lenses.

[Ecaton]

This is an old project. It is well known that in the 1990's, a design study was made for an aspherical 50mm Summicron. On paper, this new design delivered very high performance where even the computed MTF curve for 40lpm wide open did never drop below 50% – and that is exactly what is claimed for the new Summicron.

 

The decision was made however to discontinue the project, because the drastically increased cost of the lens would not be proportionate to the performance increase. A 50mm Summicron must be a mainstay M lens, so it must be reasonable as a marketing proposition. Instead, the decision was made to radically redesign the 50mm Summilux, as this would bring a far more significant improvement. To my mind, that was the right decision to make.

 

But in this age of special event hype and internet hysteria, the definition of 'reasonable' may well have been changed beyonf recognition. Also, as was amply shown during the 1930's, savage inequality in incomes and social rights is good for the super-luxury market. Here in Europe, in the U.S.A. and in China. So Mr Karbe did get his dream lens at last.

 

From now on, we know what kind of people Leica design and produce for. It is not for us.

 

But in order to maintain one's position in the superbling segment, it is not enough just to offer superexpensive products. This was not how Leica made its reputation. It was made by offering serious and innovative products for working photographers. That btw was how Max Berek saw it. Without that serious reputation, Leica would never have made it into the high-bling sector. And without it, Leica will slowly slip out of it again, down amongst the purveyors of the golden wristwatches with cheap electronic innards flaunted by small-time gangsters in seedy suburbs that I will not name here – you find them in every country.

 

Is this the new Leica Way? We'll see at the photokina. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I have the Leica lenses I have. And, yes, the M9 I have. And remember that the 1930's were followed by the 1940's.

 

The old man from the Berek Age

 

A tough read at first. But after some thinking I must say: there is a lot of wisdom in your words.

[almoore]

How much sharpness does a photographer need? The previous version Summicron is already sharp enough at f2 and its only flaw is a tendency towards a bit of flariness (and even then, flare makes as many images as it breaks). The new lens is a technical and marketing exercise that has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual needs of photographers.

 

I'm sure that Leica will sell as many of these as they can make, but they'll primarily be worn as male jewelry in Hong Kong and Monaco rather than be used to make meaningful photos.

[jaapv]

You have been helpful in this regard before. Please explain how 18MP is medium format.

.

I cannot. I saw the results.

[Fgcm]

 

Is this the new Leica Way?

 

 

Lars, it's a good way.

 

Leica is offering lenses ranging from Summarit (Which are 100 Times better than anything from Nikon or Canon) up to New summicron.

It's up to you to choose price and performance.

Entry level is great. Top level is stepping into MF

 

What's funny is that my travel rig based on Summarit and a 50 lux asph is expenive comparing to Nikon while a pro rig based on New summicron and M-M + M9 for pro quality is cheap when compared to a MF

 

If I was a MF manufacturer I would wake up and I ask myself what's gong on in a copule of years.

 

Be happy: this New Leica seems better suited to survive as a "small" indipendent manufacturer than it was just 5 years ago.

Do you remember when most of us was asking if Leica could survive?

Now we are asking ourself when M10 will arrive.

 

Leica is making a great job.

 

A+ for Leica people.

 

Fgcm

[lars_bergquist]

The technical explanation is to be found on Sean Reid’s site.

Lars, you will be able to buy an old type Summicron in the future. This lens is NOT a replacement, but an addition to the range.

 

I sold that Summicron off in 2004 and bought myself a Summilux ASPH. I don't want that Summicron anywhere near me. Look at Thorsten Overgaards' last addition to his long M9 review, and you will se why. The Summilux is an optically robust lens. Even the old 1962 Summicron was better in that respect.

 

And if I want a smaller 50mm, there's always the Summarit. No hype, no myth, and to me, that's better.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

[Ecaton]

Still trying to find Leica's approach to build their 1% market share as they told the world a few months back. All these super niche products won't make a difference in market share but revenue and profit only.

[rosuna]

Does anyone want a new 75mm Summilux ASPH? Really?

[lars_bergquist]

I mean, no thanks!

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

[georg]

For 6000€ it's not for me, either but as long as more affordable lenses are in the line-up and nobody can achieve a similar quality at a lower price point, nobody should have a problem with this "insanity". At least it's not another "me too"-product with a red dot like the X2...

 

But has anybody asked WHY this price? For me it looks technically not much different than a 75 Summicron (FE, APO, Asph...) and definitely not more ambitius than the wide Summilux-lenses?

[lars_bergquist]

That price is not based on any cost-plus consideration, but on what the super-rich crazies are willing to pay. That estimate may be wrong, I don't know.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pico]

18Mp compressed file: 36Mp uncompressed file: IIRC select in menu just like M9.

 

DNG uncompressed on the M9 is, indeed, 36Mp (Mine are 36.2 due to cluster factor), and a smaller file is created upon in-camera compression by throwing out some information, however a better measure would be the how much information, sans color, is significant.

 

I suspect Jaap is referring to the use of all pixel wells as in a 1:1 ratio in B&W rather than a combination of adjacent wells through the Bayer filter to define one color pixel.

 

There is so much to yet know about the implementation.

 

EDIT:

Jaap: "I cannot. I saw the results."

 

I'm of the same school. See and understand. I am not about to do the mathematics, or dump HEX or anything other than trying it and experiencing it. Thanks for being there, Jaap.

.

[lars_bergquist]

Again, megapixels are how many pixel sites there are on a sensor. Megabytes are just about how much space the file takes up on your card or hard disc. They are measures of two different things, not necessarily a function of each other.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age