wlaidlaw Posted March 7, 2012 Share #421 Posted March 7, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) [quote name=SJP;1998687 Also worth noting its long history' date=' one of the first applications I know of magnesium alloy called "elektron" was for the VW beetle engine, still going strong. W.O. Bentley used Electron for the crankcases of his BR1 and BR2 rotary engines, which powered some Sopwith Camels during WW1 Then subsequently used it for all the crankcases of his own 3, 4.5, 6.5, 8 and 4 litre "Cricklewood" cars. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here M9 on tripod - bottom part broken anyone else ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted March 7, 2012 Share #422 Posted March 7, 2012 The Tatraplan engine had an " Electron" crankcase, which is not surprising as Hans Ledwinka had ties with Porsche Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 7, 2012 Share #423 Posted March 7, 2012 Aluminium i thought. Not for Daimler-Benz, Porsche, and various others (Jeep etc.)- see the link I provided above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 7, 2012 Share #424 Posted March 7, 2012 Jaap, the body shell of M film bodies (the bit which provides all the strength) is aluminium. It is the top plate (M6 and some other models) which is zinc.Not according to Eastland's compendium. The topplate on M6 too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 7, 2012 Share #425 Posted March 7, 2012 Forget Eastland. Take the bottom off your M6 and have a look at the shell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 7, 2012 Share #426 Posted March 7, 2012 Ian, Diecast zinc looks almost exactly like aluminium. I seem to recall it was often used for low pressure die castings, as molten zinc flows much better into nooks and crannies (think Dinky toys) than aluminium alloys. It does not get the hydrogen bubbles that aluminium alloy die castings can get as well. The downside is that it is quite brittle (again think Dinky toys) particularly in cold weather. Alfa Romeo's which used to use chrome plated die cast zinc door handles, were notorious for snapping them in really cold weather. For that reason, I would be slightly surprised if Leica had used die cast zinc for the bodies of M film cameras. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 7, 2012 Share #427 Posted March 7, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm intrigued. I cannot find any authority that contradicts Eastland. I'll shoot a mail to Erwin and JC tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 7, 2012 Share #428 Posted March 7, 2012 You don't have to understand metallurgy or be an engineer. You can simply look at these two images and see how Leica's design relies on a thin piece of metal compared with the lowly Pentax from the 50s. I think that Leica's engineers surely have the ability to come up with a stronger design if so many individuals on this forum can do it. One can argue over whether or not this is a defect or what constitutes normal usage but I would not expect to see tripod mounting failure unless a camera was severely abused. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/178369-m9-on-tripod-bottom-part-broken-anyone-else/?do=findComment&comment=1947327'>More sharing options...
farnz Posted March 7, 2012 Share #429 Posted March 7, 2012 You don't have to understand metallurgy or be an engineer. You can simply look at these two images and see how Leica's design relies on a thin piece of metal compared with the lowly Pentax from the 50s. I think that Leica's engineers surely have the ability to come up with a stronger design if so many individuals on this forum can do it. One can argue over whether or not this is a defect or what constitutes normal usage but I would not expect to see tripod mounting failure unless a camera was severely abused. The same tired old argument based on, as far as I recall, 3 instances of reported failed baseplates out of many thousands of M8's sold. And the latest instance reported in this thread is by the owner's honest admission because his tripod fell over with his M8 attached to it. Time to move on. Perhaps as a non-Engineer you'd like to explain the sheer forces and bending moments of Leica's design using Bowes Notation to qualify your sweeping statement and demonstrate your understanding of the design principles involved. Would you take someone's view seriously if they told you that you don't need to be a professional photographer to shoot professional-quality interiors as long as your point-and-shoot has a pop-up flash? Can you understand the parallel I'm drawing here? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestMichigan Posted March 8, 2012 Share #430 Posted March 8, 2012 Sir, I can follow your argument. I Agree that the limited reported failures combined with admitted and/or obvious out-of-the-ordinary forces behind these failures make for thin reasons to strongly doubt the engineering of the parts in question. I suspect, but cannot verify, that your reference regarding a Bowes Notations means there is sound science behind doubting weaknesses in magnesium used in the manner Leica has done so. I'm a photog not a metallurgist or an engineer! What I am is someone who's written a fair number of posts on photoforums and I would say that your presentation of your argument invites misinterpretation if not carefully read or if you aren't given the benefit of the doubt. Two things easily encountered in a medium where our words upon a screen are all the context or assistance the words receive in carrying our thoughts and meanings. In summary: I think Farnz is probably quite right in the jist of his arguments, folks. Sincerely Richard in Michigan The same tired old argument based on, as far as I recall, 3 instances of reported failed baseplates out of many thousands of M8's sold. And the latest instance reported in this thread is by the owner's honest admission because his tripod fell over with his M8 attached to it. Time to move on. Perhaps as a non-Engineer you'd like to explain the sheer forces and bending moments of Leica's design using Bowes Notation to qualify your sweeping statement and demonstrate your understanding of the design principles involved. Would you take someone's view seriously if they told you that you don't need to be a professional photographer to shoot professional-quality interiors as long as your point-and-shoot has a pop-up flash? Can you understand the parallel I'm drawing here? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 8, 2012 Share #431 Posted March 8, 2012 The same tired old argument based on, I don't see anything in my post that is argumentative. Just some photos and my observation that the Pentax tripod socket looks stronger than the Leica's. Do you disagree with this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 8, 2012 Share #432 Posted March 8, 2012 Can't say anything about that without knowing how well the screws are anchored. Rather small screws too and they might very well be torn from their sockets easily. It is very hard to tell the strength of a construction from the thinness and brittleness of the material. Otherwise an egg would never work.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 8, 2012 Share #433 Posted March 8, 2012 Can't say anything about that without knowing how well the screws are anchored. Rather small screws too and they might very well be torn from their sockets easily. It is very hard to tell the strength of a construction from the thinness and brittleness of the material. Otherwise an egg would never work.. I already gave a demonstration of how strong the Pentax mount is. Try the same test on an M8. And I could take the screws out to show you. The M8 is not built anything like an egg. If you replaced the metal on the M8 with eggshell, how well would the base plate locking mechanism work? Two observations: I don't recall even 3 documented cases of tripod mounting failure on Pentax or other cameras. I have owned several quick release tripod systems from Linhof and Manfrotto. They are well designed and never failed even using very heavy large format cameras that could apply a lot of torque when I carried the camera and tripod over my shoulder. If a mechanism identical to the M8's was sold as a quick release mounting system and had 3 documented structural failures, I think users on this forum would have concerns about using it. And I bet the manufacturer would beef it up or withdraw it from sale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 8, 2012 Share #434 Posted March 8, 2012 I'm intrigued. I cannot find any authority that contradicts Eastland. I'll shoot a mail to Erwin and JC tomorrow. A long and complicated story, as mailed to me by Erwin (in Dutch, so I will only put it in on request.) The upshot is that the LTM are from extruded Aluminum pipe, the M3-M7 diecast Aluminum, and M8/9 die-cast Magnesium alloy. He also explains all top covers and bottoms but that is neither here nor there in this thread. This is the second mistake in J.E.'s Compendium this week Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe S Posted March 9, 2012 Share #435 Posted March 9, 2012 The same tired old argument based on, as far as I recall, 3 instances of reported failed baseplates out of many thousands of M8's sold. And the latest instance reported in this thread is by the owner's honest admission because his tripod fell over with his M8 attached to it. Time to move on. Perhaps as a non-Engineer you'd like to explain the sheer forces and bending moments of Leica's design using Bowes Notation to qualify your sweeping statement and demonstrate your understanding of the design principles involved. Would you take someone's view seriously if they told you that you don't need to be a professional photographer to shoot professional-quality interiors as long as your point-and-shoot has a pop-up flash? Can you understand the parallel I'm drawing here? Pete. I don't think one needs equations or a degree from a prestigious university to see that this is not one of Leica's finer designs. Seat of the pants engineering will do. If I recall Porsche 356 engine cases were made of aluminum while the VWs of the era were made of magnesium. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 9, 2012 Share #436 Posted March 9, 2012 I don't think one needs equations or a degree from a prestigious university to see that this is not one of Leica's finer designs. Seat of the pants engineering will do. If I recall Porsche 356 engine cases were made of aluminum while the VWs of the era were made of magnesium. Yes - for additional strength. Similarly on the gearbox casings. The VW magnesium gearbox casings were also used for many Hewland racing gearboxes and have a tendency to crack/fail where the output shaft runs in its front bearing, going into the differential chamber, if used for engines larger than 1500cc and also from age hardening. As a result, people are prepared to pay very large premiums to get the Porsche aluminium housing or its modern copy (made by Ace Metallfabrik), which does not fail. Similarly but with some trepidation, I decided to use a magnesium casing on my classic rally 1977 911 Carrera RS 3.0, type 915 gearbox, as I only do tarmac rallying, and regularity rather than timed nowadays. If I had been going to do gravel or against the clock rallies, I would have opted for the heavier but stronger aluminium 930 gearbox casing with 915 gears. Not sure I made the correct decision, as I have already had to have the gearbox out to cure oil leaks, maybe due to flexing of the casing from the 285HP engine. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 9, 2012 Share #437 Posted March 9, 2012 The upshot is that the LTM are from extruded Aluminum pipe, the M3-M7 diecast Aluminum, and M8/9 die-cast Magnesium alloy. I'll try to resist the temptation to write "I told you so". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 9, 2012 Share #438 Posted March 9, 2012 I'll resist the temptation to write " I was only quoting, not asserting" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 9, 2012 Share #439 Posted March 9, 2012 Quite Ian. We wouldn't want you becoming a CEO. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/178369-m9-on-tripod-bottom-part-broken-anyone-else/?do=findComment&comment=1948739'>More sharing options...
thegrantgreen Posted March 18, 2012 Share #440 Posted March 18, 2012 oh well, btw, just a few days ago i got a message from the customer care in solms that they will repair my base plate failure for free. i love leica = ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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