Learning to compose - lens advice

[pico]

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[...]So I’d like to get it right this time and stick to the basics. My question is not purely Leica related but about learning photography in general.

 

The following goes against much of what has been recommended. It worked for me when I restarted photography long ago. My mentor led by example, and shot with one camera and one lens, a 50mm Summicron. I did the same on a new M2 and stuck with that lens for three years. I have 'wide angle' eyes. Every normal sighted person has 'wide angle eyes', but composing with a 50mm simplifies your task, concentrates your attention, and you will sometimes suffer through the course of careful compromises necessary with all lenses. Suffering is not a bad thing. You are not making a living on your photography, you are enjoying it, living life and learning.

 

I know you want a digital camera, the M9, and you might just go with the A mode. Too bad, IMHO, but still that can still be a good start if you avoid auto-ISO and some other features.

 

So, I recommend a 50mm lens - whatever one fits your budget. F/2 Summicron is good. Any of them, as long as it is in good condition. Use a lens hood.

 

Regarding composition - it is a good idea to avoid books on composition at first and look at your pictures repeatedly over time. You might discover an innate tendency to favor a particular composition, colors, selective focus, for better or worse. Then look at a lot of photographs as often as is comfortable, perhaps choosing those from the age of 'normal' lenses and 35mm film. Keep making pictures. At your leisure study without trying to copy the 'advice' of formal compositionists.

 

Keep it simple. Enjoy.

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[haroldp]

Extremely expensive though for a beginner....

 

Less expensive than growing out of your 'beginner' camera and then buying a Leica.

Throwing away the crutches is a good way to learn to walk.

 

I have always thought that automation is used most effectively by those who do not need it, to make themselves faster.

 

Regards .... H

[TomB_tx]

I agree with the replies about selecting the lens according to how you "see" the world. I tend to be someone who keeps a bit of distance, so I find a 35 images more how I see things, as it includes more "context" of situations. Artistically it makes for more boring or less pointed images, but then I'm a more boring person.

A 50 certianly helps me emphasize a single subject or couple more without working uncomfortably (for me) close, and I've used a 50 more over the years to make me think more of the image than just capturing what I see.

For people pictures I've found a 75 helps me make more appealing images while at a comfortable distance, so I'm forcing myself to use it more and limit my view to be more directed and interesting.

Perhaps try getting the Leica lens that matches how you see the world, and add Voigtlander lenses to try the other views until you see what you prefer. I have a 35 Summicron (older version), but find the 35 1.4 VC stays on my M9 most of the time.

[gdrank]

Thanks in deed all for your welcoming and advice!

You do know you are right, all of you, although you may disagree in points.

 

I understand I’ll need to take lessons of composition through contemporary images as well as paintings, be it 13th century or newer, I’m on it…

 

Re learning with automatic cameras: I do know how to expose correctly. I’m aware of most technical issues in shooting with a camera. Been through seminars back in the college years and even had my own darkroom for a while. Still have my 70’s pentax TTL back home that I can confidently use. What I learned however was mainly technical info to capture various kinds of shots that although very useful did not include the “art” part of making an image, the composition side. That’s what I’m lacking in. I like being in control of a shot, wouldn’t go to an automatic. Being in control and manually generating a shot is fun; the resulting image is not everything, the “game” itself counts as well.

 

Then, M9 is an expensive tool, why not a nexus? I like being honest. We live in a consumer society; everyone loves expensive and high end, masterfully crafted toys / tools. This toy will help me give in to photography, while a nexus might not boost my enthusiasm that much. Check Overgaard, he describes it in a more diplomatic way, disguising it to the “love factor” for your camera . Many people might get by and be motivated only by the resulting image. Their will is probably stronger than mine. Me, I like the game around it.

 

I probably go through complicated issues on a casual manner – please comment as desired; critically, even better!

 

Reading your advice I’m on to get the first lens available. Looking now for a used Summicron, 50 or 35, pre-ASPH most likely, whichever is found first, with 50mm preferred if both are found. I’ll be home for just a couple of weeks, so I can’t miss the chance. Although I get the points on 75 & 90mm and learning composition, (thanks people) I’ll pass for now, since they won’t give me the chance to get into the scene as much as wider lengths will..

I’ll also try to see whether I can get a distance mentoring / advising scheme that can organize my progress (apart from you in the forum I mean!)

I’m a humanitarian aid worker, finding myself in various disasters / crises, man made or natural, planning operational response often before the photojournalists arrive, and always sticking around longer than they do… That, together with the travelling to new places aspect, always give me subject to work on, just need to learn how to capture the essence of the subject and show it outside. In addition, while my job is not the most stress free in the plannet, having something personal I like to get involved to and struggle with –photography in my case- helps in retaining sanity.

Cheers

George

[farnz]

George,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Much good advice here as you've noted but perhaps there's one thing that hasn't been mentioned that's peripheral to composition but is also intrinsic to it: having the nerve to take the picture, which is often just about being close enough. Some people choose a longer focal length to give them more distance as a comfort zone, which is completely natural and justifiable at first. I believe it was Robert Capa who said "If your pictures aren't good enough you aren't close enough." Having the nerve to get closer is as important in my opinion as composition and one relies on the other.

 

As a humanitarian aid worker (kudos) I'd imagine that you're exposed to some highly potent and volatile situations, which is not the norm for the rest of us, so you'll need to follow you're instincts a little more than most about how close you can/should go or whether taking the picture is appropriate at all. The very best of luck with it.

 

Pete.

[Manolo Laguillo]

To learn "composition" develop the drawing skills you, we, everybody already have, and draw for a while.

 

Drawing is not difficult at all: the skills we adults use when writing with a pen (not with a keyboard, of course ) are more than enough. Betty Edward explains it brilliantly in her book "How to draw with the right side of the brain".

 

The problem is not a physical, manual, but a visual one.

 

The problem is learning to see what effectively is there, discarding everything else.

 

The drawing is what remains after a process of paying attention in a very special way.

 

And there are no rules, of course. Perhaps Edward Weston said it better than nobody else: "composition is the strongest way of seeing".

 

BTW, Cartier-Bresson followed a rigorous training in drawing and painting under the guidance of André Lhote before he began with photography. Pierre Assouline explains it in his biography of the master, with whom he had long conversations during the writing of that biography. C-B's exceptional sense for composition was developed through drawing, through an active seizing of the "real" world, not only of paintings and photographies.

[gdrank]

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Farns,

Very interesting aspect in deed!

No, I don’t have the nerve of the photojournalist (or at least the nerve that is required by the photojournalist).Not even trying to get it.

My asset is that I stay long enough to get acquainted with people and places. I’ll never go first time to a site starting photographing people (apart from general shots on areas affected for work purposes etc). As soon as I’m seen and usually known, I can visit areas, enter houses or camps and shoot. I’ll most get around the human aspect of the subject than the “news” side.

I want to bring the example of the last Pulitzer photo: Dude! This guy just raised the camera and shot! I’m very much aware it’s his job, and certainly have sent out the message intended clearly throughout the globe, helping people see, understand, care; I thank him for it. The fact someone was there and just shot a picture and published it has been discussed a lot in my circle of work however.

That, I wouldn’t do. Fortunately we have photojournalists that will!

(off topic, but hot topic…)

Cheers

George

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again George,

 

It is good you are doing what you do. A person who makes the World a better place for someone else each day is someone who makes the whole World a better place.

 

You might read again what I wrote in my Post above since both your circumstance & temperment make my choice of lenses even more appropriate. Sometimes a little space between you & what you are photographing can be beneficial.

 

Would you rather be right up close in the middle of everything or step back a bit to give people a little space & still have the same picture? It doesn't take that much more skill to use a short or medium telephoto than it does to use a normal or moderate wide angle lens.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Peter H]

George, I admire and congratulate you on the work you do.

 

I find that if I spend time with people they almost invariably don't mind when I take photos, and since I almost always have the camera with me, they ignore me when I use it, which enables me to get much more natural unposed and un-selfconscious shots.

 

Your relationship with the people you are photographing will always be more important than what lens you choose to use.

 

You'll do wonderfully I'm sure.

[Sp12]

Voigtlander makes a 35/1.2 for ~1.3K that many claim is sharper than the FLE Lux. It's certainly faster and much less expensive. There's the Pre-asph Summicron for only a bit more cash if F/2 is good enough and you value size.

 

That said, Leica is likely coming out with the M10 in ~3 weeks, so I would hold off plopping ~8K on a camera body likely to be outdated before you put 100 clicks on it

[gdrank]

Thanks again!

 

Re 90mm tele: Michael, your point is clear, I appreciate that. My thoughts / reservations on teles are:

· Size. One lovely aspect with the Leica is I can get a Summicron or even Summilux (pre-asph 35mm) with a UV filter for element protection and throw it in my small shoulder or waist bag. The 90mm take some more space…

· Focusing speed and accuracy / tiny 90mm framelines as well as narrower DoF? – wich – as you point out - is something someone can surely overcome after sometime with a lens however…

· Actual subjects: I assume the tele lens is appropriate for journalism / news photographers since the space they give allows discreet shooting. I mainly want to interact with the subject / people around the subject – as Peter notes -. The subjects I want to picture do not usually have to do with “pain” or the “tragedy” unfolding. Unicef is already doing good work on it. In every village in crisis struck countries in Africa or Asia or even in refugee camps, people still work, commute, get married, set up places of worship and pray, set up coffee shops, bottle stores and markets, play football and have parties, sing and dance and get drunk (which is fine unless they carry kalashnikovs ), attend their herds or cultivate gardens, give birth and have funerals, follow customs and festivities etc etc. That’s where I can be into and make pictures at. And thats just the half of it. I don't spend all mytime in the field - capital cities, weekends off, R&Rs, coordination bases are in nearby areas where I can shoot classic "new countries and cultures" pictures... I would consider 90mm for portraits and the narrow angle of view that will help me in keeping composition simple, discarding surrounding distractions, not for its discretion.

 

SP12, thanks for that, I’m sure you know what you’re talking about. There are two issues making me wana stick to Leica lens:

· Size, as mentioned above, and

· Reliability. I want a lens to be reliable always. Then, I do not really want or have the time to do in depth review of all options and then decide confidently on the best. That’s difficult. I prefer make a fast decision first and make it work afterwards. Leica glass is supposed to have the reliability I’m looking for, so I’ll stick on it. Better to find out later that I got a bad deal than a bad lens…

Now, yes, Summicron is what I’m after and pre-asph will be fine I guess!

M10. Ok, I guess I’ll be travelling on the 10th, thus no time to wait. If M10 finally comes out… bad luck. Bad deal I guess, which is better than no camera for 3-4 months!

 

Cheers all,

George

[Sp12]

If it's a primary concern maybe the M system isn't the best. It's not remotely weathersealed, and there's been tons of reports with blue-lines, cracked sensors, errors writing to SD cards, lockups. I've been lucky but still don't use either of mine on paid shoots.

 

I have gotten a bad Leica lens once in my long history of Leica lenses (faulty aperture linkage or something on a 50 1.4 pre asph). There have also been a few that needed rangefinder calibration. I think for size you can't beat a Summicron though I certainly would not go on a trip without having at least a few days to test a lens/camera combination.

 

If you decide you need to save a bit/want something faster the Voigt 35 is one of the most reviewed third party M lenses.

 

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/12/02/voigtlander-nokton-35-1-2-aspherical-ii-lens-review-on-the-leica-m9/

http://prosophos.com/2011/08/09/the-voigtlander-nokton-35mm-f1-2-aspherical-version-i/

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/fastlensreview.shtml

[adli]

In stead of choosing one lens and choose between 35 and 50, I would go for the classic two lens combo 35/90. Should keep you satisfied for a long time, learning to know the lenses and at the same time have a versatile lens kit.

[jaapv]

Well, well. If forums are your criterium no camera in the world is the best.You have not been lucky, you have a camera that follows the norm As for weathersealed, no it is not, but it is so well built that it will resist a considerable amount of rain. I take it that you are not a member of the DDMC? *

 

 

If it's a primary concern maybe the M system isn't the best. It's not remotely weathersealed, and there's been tons of reports with blue-lines, cracked sensors, errors writing to SD cards, lockups. I've been lucky but still don't use either of mine on paid shoots.

 

I have gotten a bad Leica lens once in my long history of Leica lenses (faulty aperture linkage or something on a 50 1.4 pre asph). There have also been a few that needed rangefinder calibration. I think for size you can't beat a Summicron though I certainly would not go on a trip without having at least a few days to test a lens/camera combination.

 

If you decide you need to save a bit/want something faster the Voigt 35 is one of the most reviewed third party M lenses.

 

Voigtlander Nokton 35 1.2 Aspherical II Lens review on the Leica M9 | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

The Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f/1.2 aspherical (Version I).

Luminous landscape

 

* Dunked Digital M Club

[Messsucherkamera]

Extremely expensive though for a beginner....

 

Some folks know what they want and are willing to sacrifice for it - that kind of commitment is admirable, in my book.

 

I'd rather talk photography with someone of that mindset than with any one of the bitter legions who seem to hate Leica cameras simply because they are not easily affordable for them due to their financial lot in life.

 

As for the original poster's question about lenses, I would say take a look at the used market for a good lens or lenses. There is no 6-12 month wait and prices are attractive.

 

A minty used 50 Summicron or 50 Elmar and a 28 Elmarit would make a nice starter set in my opinion. These two focal lengths will cover probably 90% of photographic subject matter and circumstances.

[luigi bertolotti]

Extremely expensive though for a beginner....

 

M9 is expensive, no doubt, but if one can afford it, why not ? At least, it can be supposed that having bought such a camera, one takes SERIOUSLY the effort to became a good photographer... after all, though mostly "manual", a M9 is more simple, in terms of functions, than many cheaper DSLRs.

[rramesh]

Personally I found three things at the top of my list as important to use a camera, such as a Leica.

 

1. Training your eye to compose the moment in a frame, as a Leica captures it in a fixed frame (28, 35, 50). You should practise this as much without the camera as with it, so that it becomes intuitive. When you have a 35 lens on, you should be able to see the scene as a 35 lens would, even without looking at the viewfinder.
   
2. Training your body to anticipate the moment and ensuring that you are in the right position for the most interesting shot. Watch out for traffic and obstacles though.
   
3. Training yourself in the instrument (the camera) and all its settings, so that you can operate it quickly, fluidly and appropriately under given lighting etc.
   

The above are basic and you can improve on it with any camera. The Leica just makes it a lot more enjoyable.

[lars_bergquist]

rramesh, I agree completely. Your list is also my list.

 

I would say however that a camera with a zoom lens is not the right one to use when learning to preview the picture. I see them everywhere, cranking or pumping their zoom lenses, helplessly searching for a picture that they perhaps suspect is waiting 'out there'. One prime lens, a 35 or a 50mm, or one with the equivalent field of view if your sensor size is different, is the way to go.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

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[Ruhayat]

I'd say 50mm, too. It's a boring lens with a normal perspective, so whatever you do with it the composition or content has to be pretty special to stand out. With the 35mm there is a slight distortion which could add interest to even mundane subjects.

 

On top of that, I'd say stay off the larger apertures. Some people cheat by making uninteresting subject matters/compositions look like something special by going f1.4 or f2.0 and then blurring everything but a miniscule portion of the photo.

[farnz]

I'd say 50mm, too. It's a boring lens ...

Eh?