Handholding at slow speed, SLR vs RF

[Lord Fluff]

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Hi guys

 

Just curious here. I have shot SLRs for 25 years now, so maybe I'm biased, and RF cameras only around 3 years. However, over and over again, I hear how much easier it is to handhold slow shutter speeds on RF cameras with good results, when I find the reverse to be true.

 

Personally I find a large DSLR, with (comparatively) large lens an inherently steady proposition, and can handhold to pretty low speeds. Even concentrating hard on technique I can't replicate these results with an RF.

 

Does anyone else find their hands are steadier with a bigger camera? I find the M9 (and M6 and M8 before it) just too easy to disturb when shooting - especially due to the direction of travel of the shutter release which is straight down, not a nice inward squeeze like a DSLR. I've improved matters somewhat by choosing soft release on the M9, but as I say, I still fare better with the big cameras.....

[pgk]

In the past I think was the 'intermediate' speeds(eg. 1/30s & 1/15s with a 50mm lens) - those where mirror vibration would cause problems - where the RF was more likely to produce a crisper image. Modern dSLR incorporate braking and anti-vibration systems which have reduced the differential. Slower speeds are hit and miss whatever camera you are using. My record to date is a 4s handheld shot with fill flash which graced a magazine cover, but this was a special case. My philosophy on slow-speed hand-held shots is to take a lot - one may just be crisper than the rest and therefore acceptable. I'm not sure that bulk and weight make any difference personally. If you want to try to work on holding equipment steadier then try taking up target shooting as this will teach you to nullify movement or at least minimise it.

[Stateowned]

when i use breathing techniques and have a good solid stance i can easily get 1/15th with my m8

 

with the lighter canon 450d that was close to imposible for me @ 35mm..

 

the canon 1d3 i had was a bit easier because, like you said, its a bit bulkier and therefor harder to move.

[stuny]

Target shooting techniques cited above are valid for hand-held photography. One less known part of that formula is that a heavier firearm, all other things being equal, and the firearm not being so heavy as not to be able to hold on target, will be steadier than a lighter firearm. Using these techniques I regualrly can shoot 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 with success. Here are two examples from last night: the first at 1/4 and the 2nd at 1/13 with a D2.

 

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[giordano]

I used to find film Ms and Barnacks easier to hold steady at low speeds than contemporary SLRs, but the difference seems less between my M8 and D700. I think this is mainly the D700 shutter release is well placed and very smooth, while that on my M8 is stiffer and rougher than on any film M I've used. I cheerfully use speeds down to about 1/4 sec hand-held (longer if I can lean my elbows on something) but always take multiple exposures in the hope that one will be decent.

 

A while ago I set up a gallery with some slow hand-held shots: 1/15 second - jn's Photos . All of them are acceptable (to me at least) but none of them are really crisp.

[TomB_tx]

Since my "fast" lenses have been Summicrons for 40 years I've done a lot at 1/15 and 1/8 exposures. It is a learned technique. I still find the old-school RF technique best, which is to use the left hand as the main support, directly under the lens-body connection, so the hand supports the body (often with the last 2 fingers curled under) while the index and thumb handle focus. The right hand just steadies and trips the shutter.

If you use the right hand at the end of the camera as the main support, any quiver is magnified by the "lever arm" from the grip to the lens, as the lens will move more than the grip. Instead support on the left hand, with the arm pulled in to the body directly under like a monopod.

DSLRs with the grips for the right hand are intended more for long zooms, where the left hand has to wrestle with the lens. Of course, the image stabilization built into the new DSLRs compensates for the bad technique.

[prunelle]

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I find my M3 far more steadier at low speeds than my V-Lux 2. I noticed that it was easier to stick the M3 against my face, using not only my hands but also my forehead to keep it steady. I also wonder if it's not so because it's also heavier than the V-Lux.

[lars_bergquist]

Supporting the camera and your grip with a tight strap, the way a sniper uses his rifle sling, is a great help and gives me between one and two extra hand-holdable speeds.

 

The old man from the Age of the m/96 Mauser

[bill]

I certainly find the rangefinder form factor easiest to hold steady. One factor not mentioned so far is that the continuous direct view of your subject without a blackout of the mirror does help. Many other factors come into play in determining how low you can go, including but not limited to:

 

• Camera weight, size and shape
  
• Your general health
  
• Breathing
  
• Your stance
  
• Exertion (try running up three flights of stairs and holding a camera steady)
  
• External influences (extreme cold, high winds)
  
• Narcotics (caffeine, nicotine and alcohol have an influence)
  

The one that stands out for me is actually fatigue... I find it far easier to get a steady shot by raising and shooting in one smooth movement than by holding for any length of time to my eye, regardless of which camera I am using. I have therefore over the years perfected a technique of focussing and fiddling, then dropping the camera for a second or three before raising it to shoot. I find this works better than a "constant hold". YMMV of course

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[johnwolf]

I've never compared hand holding success, but I find an slr more ergonomically sound than an M body. The rounded corners, the larger size, the hefty lens barrel to cradle--they all make for better hand holding to me. Much as I love my M9, I do miss the way my 5DII rested in my big hands. Even the plastic felt better to me.

 

John

[pico]

Over the past several years, good old Essential Tremor has made its appearance, so I weigh the M down a bit with a RRS grip, motor or Leicavit with grip. So yes, for me a little heavier is better.

[spydrxx]

Just like there are pros and cons of various pistol grips for target practice or real life situations, so goes it with camera slow speeds. I personally learned with RF cameras a half century ago, and today use many of the same tricks with SLR and DSLRs. The main thing in my opinion is, breathing control, muscular control and practice, practice, practice. Also - low caffeine consumption seems to help me.

[IkarusJohn]

How you grip the camera, breathing, squeezing the shutter release and stance work well for me. If I can make a stable triangle, using my elbows, resting against something, and if there's nothing to assist, legs apart, elbows into the body, and controlled breathing still make a difference. I am also quite happy to crouch, lie down or otherwise improvise to create stability.

 

Cheers

John

[Lord Fluff]

Interesting that seemingly no-one is making a strong case that RF's are inherently better for low speed work - contrary to in other threads where "it's an M - you should therefore be able to use lower speeds" gets trotted out on a regular basis.

 

All interesting stuff though, and good to hear from a few who also find the SLR arrangement superior in this regard.

[thompsonkirk]

I can't hand-hold digital Ms at the slow shutter speeds that 'came naturally' on my M4. The difference is the lack of smoothness in descent of the shutter button on digital Ms. I'm no longer fully confident even at 1/30 & always expose twice at that speed or below. The Continuous setting helps – I'm apparently more stable during the second exposure.

 

I'm always delighted when I use the M4 & feel/hear the smoothness of the shutter release. I like to carry it with a collapsible 50 on hikes, when my clumsiness makes it less-than-wise to carry $8-10K of digital gear.

 

Kirk

[salim]

Normally I would not trust myself anything less than 1/30. But since I got the thumbs up and the leather case with the gripper. I am shooting 1/8 wining Ny problems. But yes with RF in general I find it easier. It's how one held the RF when shooting gives you more confident and control

[lars_bergquist]

I can't hand-hold digital Ms at the slow shutter speeds that 'came naturally' on my M4. The difference is the lack of smoothness in descent of the shutter button on digital Ms. I'm no longer fully confident even at 1/30 & always expose twice at that speed or below. The Continuous setting helps – I'm apparently more stable during the second exposure.

 

I'm always delighted when I use the M4 & feel/hear the smoothness of the shutter release. I like to carry it with a collapsible 50 on hikes, when my clumsiness makes it less-than-wise to carry $8-10K of digital gear.

 

Kirk

 

You are completely right. The shutter release action on the digital M cameras is atrocious – long, jerky and grating. It would never be tolerated on a match rifle or pistol (I know – I used to hone my trigger actions myself, literally). The button should have a smooth take-up (if any) to the point of release, a light but distinct release, and no fall-through after it. Too many functions – power-up, exposure lock, release –have been built into the action. I use the Soft Release option, but it is still not good.

 

Maybe the Gnomes of Solms should have a talk with the Gnomes of Hämmerli, or some other German-speaking manufacturer of target guns. Or even a competent local gunsmith.

 

The old man, home from the target butts

[salim]

I forgot to mention, I also got myself the soft release. Helps as well

[jaapv]

You are completely right. The shutter release action on the digital M cameras is atrocious – long, jerky and grating. It would never be tolerated on a match rifle or pistol (I know – I used to hone my trigger actions myself, literally). The button should have a smooth take-up (if any) to the point of release, a light but distinct release, and no fall-through after it. Too many functions – power-up, exposure lock, release –have been built into the action. I use the Soft Release option, but it is still not good.

 

Maybe the Gnomes of Solms should have a talk with the Gnomes of Hämmerli, or some other German-speaking manufacturer of target guns. Or even a competent local gunsmith.

 

The old man, home from the target butts

 

Being used to the hair trigger effect of the M9 set to soft release, I was out shooting my M6 clasic last weekend. Then I found out what an improvement the digital M is over that camera. It was far too long and compared to the M9 it felt like I really had to push it down. Very unpleasant. Reading yourpost I realized that there must be considerable sample variation between cameras. Yours is harsh and grating, mine is smooth and pleasant. I feel like I only have to think "shoot" and the camera goes off by itsellf. I'm sure yours could be improved by Leica CS.

 

If the release on the works as it should a proper shooting technique will help. Lars is sure to have but for a city boy like me it can be trained. Doing fine mechanical work for decades has trained my hands to be able to shoot up to 1.5 seconds handheld with a fair chance of success on an 18 mm lens.

Meanwhile I'll put a link here to the relevant post in the M9 FAQ. (<sigh> I reaaly put some effort into that thread...)

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/130720-m9-faqs-frequently-asked-questions-answers.html#post1548925

 

I forgot to mention, I also got myself the soft release. Helps as well

 

At slow shutterspeeds it is counterproductive. You don't want anything preventing your finger from resting on the shutter collar.

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[jaapv]

With this matter cropping up again I decided to revived an old thread and merge it with Lord Fluff's recent question