uroman Posted September 2, 2011 Share #101 Posted September 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) When I read about this lens QC problem, as a newer leica user, I am actually very disappointed in Leica. It comes down to this - I switched from high end dSLRs, where lenses were 1k-2k. To spend this much on leica lenses, and them not be cosmetically perfect, in an obvious fashion, is indicative of a lack of QC in my opinion. I fully respect that this could be an isolated incident. BUt it comes down to this - I wouldnt buy a new car with a paint problem, and I havent seen this problem on any dSLR lens I have owned. So from my perspective, it is just not right. Is it the end of the world? No. But I would return the lens for refund if i had noticed it on delivery. I am willing to wait for any good product. I dont understand the concept of a new lens needing "repair", though I am sure several others will understand. In the end, my expectations of leica are high, and if your expectations are lower, then this whole thing may not bother you. I keep my expectations high, for this luxury item. Maybe, leica is saying, "keep your expectations low, we make mistakes". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Hi uroman, Take a look here Leica's Quality Control Continues to Disappoint. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 2, 2011 Share #102 Posted September 2, 2011 Hello pico, When I started repairing old clocks it took me 2 years before I could do anything w/o continually asking questions. Clocks & watches are relatively simple mechanisms which together are the basis of the mechanical camera, bycycle & many other industries. Back in the 1950's & 60's there were generation after generation of people who had worked in a continuous stream for Leitz which from the end of the Second World War to the late 60's or early 70's was in a continually expanding mode. The pipeline was open & the direction was clear. Then Leitz/Leica had some years w/ some ups & some downs. Today even w/ Leica wanting to expand productive capacity to meet demand there is a limit to how quickly they can expand their base of skilled people & teach them to build an apo, asph or floating element lens while continually maintaining their standards. When things are manufactured to higher tolerances, w/ better mechanisms, using higher quality materials, the pool of potential candidates to do the work is smaller & the learning curve is longer. It takes years for a competent person to succesfully learn their new Leica mantra. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 2, 2011 Share #103 Posted September 2, 2011 Today even w/ Leica wanting to expand productive capacity to meet demand there is a limit to how quickly they can expand their base of skilled people & teach them to build an apo, asph or floating element lens while continually maintaining their standards. When things are manufactured to higher tolerances, w/ better mechanisms, using higher quality materials, the pool of potential candidates to do the work is smaller & the learning curve is longer. It takes years for a competent person to succesfully learn their new Leica mantra. Best Regards, Michael I wonder how long it takes to train someone to rub white paint off of the black part of a lens ring? Or to train someone else how to look at it and see if the paint is correct? Now surely other steps are more difficult to learn, but if after all of these years Leica management hasn't figured out how to train people to do these more complex steps or simplify the stages or method of assembly, then how do they justify what they are doing? Here is a video of a complex Canon lens being assembled. While there are many steps, I don't think it would take that long to train someone to be able to do this. In any case, it seems many other companies have been able to train lots of people to be able to make complex precise objects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 2, 2011 Share #104 Posted September 2, 2011 Hello AlanG, The part of my Post you abstracted was a portion of my response to a question asked by pico about why things are different today. It was not a defense of poor work & it is inappropriate to characterize it as such. As far as I can tell no one throughout this entire Thread has defended excess paint or anything else inappropriate slipping thru quality control. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
euston Posted September 2, 2011 Share #105 Posted September 2, 2011 I am absolutely astounded at some of the comments/reactions and the odd bit of “frenzy” generated by this thread. Dare I say, I find that a few of the reactions and comments here are bordering on pathological! We live in a world that is currently so screwed up at so many levels with so many millions of suffering people. This is especially true in Africa, where I live and work for a large part of the year. I’ve just returned from Africa having seen and done some amazing things and conversely having witnessed some horrific scenes of suffering. I come back to the Forum and “walk in” on this thread; I’m appalled! The frenzy is in the minds of those, such as yourself, who have missed the point of the discussion and just want it to go away. From the outset, your side of the debate has sought to ramp up the emotional temperature with talk of internet frenzy and jeering mobs. You have taken it a step too far, in my opinion. To describe a point of view you don’t agree with as bordering on the pathological is outrageous and your implication that spending time witnessing suffering in Africa somehow validates one’s opinions on camera lens quality is as offensive as it is ridiculous. Anyone who has spent any time on this forum knows the score. Any criticism of Leica, however minor and however mildly expressed, is not well tolerated. I don’t understand why it is considered so shocking to discuss Leica’s lapses from its own high standards. Is Leica a religion? Are its lenses objects of veneration? Is it sacrilege to perceive a flaw in them? No, of course not! It would be ludicrous to think in those terms. It’s just business. The relationship with the company is that of customer and supplier - nothing more. Successful companies - and Leica is now a highly successful company - see customer comment as indispensable in their drive to achieve their quality goals. That can only only be to our ultimate benefit as customers. I hope and expect that Leica has a more enlightened attitude to criticism than some on this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 2, 2011 Share #106 Posted September 2, 2011 Not sure if i understand this Africa thing. Do you mean that there is fanboyism in Africa as well? Incredible... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 2, 2011 Share #107 Posted September 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello AlanG, The part of my Post you abstracted was a portion of my response to a question asked by pico about why things are different today. It was not a defense of poor work & it is inappropriate to characterize it as such. As far as I can tell no one throughout this entire Thread has defended excess paint or anything else inappropriate slipping thru quality control. Best Regards, Michael I wasn't commenting on you and didn't mean to imply you defended anything. I just really wonder what it takes for a person to learn how to do these tasks. I don't know if things are different today from back in the 50s or not. But if they are, I don't know what the reason is. Because it seems to me that it can't be that hard to learn how to assemble a lens and inspect it. Perhaps people have become less able to learn these skills (I doubt this) and maybe management's standards and training methods have lapsed or never were so great to begin with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted September 2, 2011 Share #108 Posted September 2, 2011 Because it seems to me that it can't be that hard to learn how to assemble a lens and inspect it. Bit like photography then, huh? 5 minutes and you're a full blown pro;). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 2, 2011 Share #109 Posted September 2, 2011 Not sure if i understand this Africa thing. Do you mean that there is fanboyism in Africa as well? Incredible... "incredible suffering" I think that is no stuff for jokes. It kinda puts a perspective on things, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 2, 2011 Share #110 Posted September 2, 2011 I don't make a difference between them and other people so i do jokes about them as well. And i express myself the way i like anyway if you don't mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 2, 2011 Share #111 Posted September 2, 2011 Let me make myself quite clear: if anybody on this forum thinks that millions of people dying of hunger is a suitable subject for funny remarks and jokes, think again. I don't make a difference between them and other people so i do jokes about them as well. And i express myself the way i like anyway if you don't mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 2, 2011 Share #112 Posted September 2, 2011 Who's saying this here? I feel extremely painful to have to respond to posts like this from anybody, be him a "moderator". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 2, 2011 Share #113 Posted September 2, 2011 Who's saying this here? I feel extremely painful to have to respond to posts like this from anybody, be him a "moderator". Please see post #66. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 2, 2011 Share #114 Posted September 2, 2011 ... Any criticism of Leica, however minor and however mildly expressed, is not well tolerated. I don’t understand why it is considered so shocking to discuss Leica’s lapses from its own high standards. Quite, but I fail to see how this applies to this thread. "how ANYONE ... concentrating on their job instead of thinking about what's for lunch could miss it" does not qualify as "minor and mildly expressed". For one, I would certainly hope that OP does not speak thus with anyone from face to face. Also, it smacks of utter ignorance. How does OP know when and how the perceived problem was caused and whether the written instructions and checklists were designed in a way to ensure that flaws of this kind were reliably detected? Also, "lapse from high standard" is taking things quite over the top. The device's fitness to its destined purpose is in no way impaired. It's a less than perfect execution of a purely cosmetic function. OP's damage is minuscule. Indeed, he was prepared to store the lens for an indefinite length of time in its box, until such time as the matching body arrived. Two small smudges do not in any way jeopardize the storage of a lens. Finally, OP feels the need to mention a lens cap which had been misplaced or lost by people who most certainly have nothing whatsoever to do with to smudges of paint on the label of his lens. Successful companies - and Leica is now a highly successful company - see customer comment as indispensable in their drive to achieve their quality goals. Information about customer satisfaction (or failure of satisfaction) is indeed a valuable asset. However, there are cases where one has to be reminded of the fact that dung is a valuable asset for farmers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 2, 2011 Share #115 Posted September 2, 2011 Who's saying this here? I feel extremely painful to have to respond to posts like this from anybody, be him a "moderator". I'm perfectly wiling to accept that I misinterpreted you but maybe you could have said so in your original reponse to my private post? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 2, 2011 Share #116 Posted September 2, 2011 Why do you want me to express myself another way? After reading me again, i still don't understand your posts above. No harm done though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted September 2, 2011 Share #117 Posted September 2, 2011 Personally, I don’t blame marknorton for being bugged by sloppy work. Being that the flaw is so very obvious and the worker was right on top of it up close… it’s impossible to miss it and let it out! Makes me wonder if it might be a disgruntled employee. I am also wondering what I would do if I got a lens like this? I guess I’d fix it myself…. or crinkle-paint it. (joke, honest) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 2, 2011 Share #118 Posted September 2, 2011 I am an Africa traveller. I understand what Mike alludes to. Maybe I'm overly sensitive but it is no joking matter to me, these people... Anyway, let's shake hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 2, 2011 Share #119 Posted September 2, 2011 Time I bought a couple of you old timers one of these. Brakspears Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fluff Posted September 2, 2011 Share #120 Posted September 2, 2011 It's a less than perfect execution of a purely cosmetic function. One which, if you watch the video, they make quite a fuss about - legibility assured for decades etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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