Future of 35mm format lenses

[bbbonthemoon]

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I'm wondering what will be near future of our precious 35mm format leica glass? OK, during last few decades we witnessed them being as very good investment, most lenses are sold now more expensive then they were purchased new. Thats why many people do not hesitate to buy new lenses now, everyone believes that they at least will hold their value.

But, with current digital technology advance, 35mm, also known as "full frame" is not a limit anymore. How long it will take for medium format sensors to appear in consumer grade cameras? I believe it will be in 5 years at max, then probably large format sensor will step in. There is real advantage in picture quality for larger size sensors, so there is no doubt the advance of technology will lead us to there. And 35mm sensor probably will be installed in cheap point and shoots And we will see lens manufactors drop their 35mm lens lines, just like it happened with film, and start producing medium/large format new lenses for new advanced cameras.

So, my point is, aren't our expensive Leica lenses going to become obsolete in very near future?

[luigi bertolotti]

The trend towards miniaturization of , let's say "prosumer" cameras imho makes uneven a general trend to upsize sensors (which surely will go on in the specialized pro cameras) : electronics (and, partially, batteries) can continue their route to smaller dimensions, but sensors are strongly tied to the law of optics... S2 size (or bigger) sensors will require always big/heavy glass, long focus throw, long focals...

 

Does someone remember compact MF cameras like Mamya 67, Fuij 670/690 ? I doubt a MF digtal can be made much smaller... and they were NOT small, even if very enjoiable.

[Studio58]

I don't see it happening. It is just as likely that more will be wrung out of a 35mm size sensor. No doubt the medium format sensor will play a part, but that will not mean the demise of 35mm.

[250swb]

I would agree that the future won't look like today, but I'm not going to loose any sleep about it, film is riding high and has a healthy future, and what camera manufacturer is going to ignore the long term sales opportunities offered by hundreds of thousands of Leica M lenses in the market? Niche manufacturing will become even easier and cheaper than it is today, and if it isn't Leica who supply film or digital bodies someone else will. I'll be dead by then though so I couldn't care less.

 

Steve

[!Nomad64]

From my very personal point of view I got so pissed off this digital rat race that I switched back to the future and got myself... an M3. It's a timeless classic as it was already perfect when she was born back in the '50s and mock me if you want, but I side with KR when he says that further cameras were actually downgrades.

I think I'll stick to film as long as it will be around but I'll also profit from digital technologies for complementary activities such as negative scans & PP for web publishing and larger prints.

 

So far my main concerns are how long films will be still available and who's gonna service my camera every 60 years...

 

Cheers,

Bruno

[SJP]

The 35 mm format is highly viable as it is a nice compromise in IQ and portability, also there are large numbers of used very high quality lenses available, often at very reasonable prices.

 

MF has larger weight, size, typically will have bigger files and is overkill in many consumer markets. P&S will necessarily have deeper DoF - there is not much you can do about that unless people start building 25mm f/0.5 lenses. In that case the prices for the optics would be similar or higher than for the 35 mm format.

 

Future of 35mm format is looking bright IMHO.

[lct]

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...with current digital technology advance, 35mm, also known as "full frame" is not a limit anymore. How long it will take for medium format sensors to appear in consumer grade cameras...

As long as people won't be keen to carry bulky cams and lenses around.

[lct]

...with current digital technology advance, 35mm, also known as "full frame" is not a limit anymore. How long it will take for medium format sensors to appear in consumer grade cameras...

As long as people won't be keen to carry bulky cams and lenses around.

[Nick_S]

A digital equivalent of the old Fuji or Bronica 645 would seem to be feasible within the not so distant future. I guess it would be something like a Leica X1 with an S2 sensor. I owned the mechanical version of the Fuji (GS645S) and it was no bulkier than a large 35 mm camera in the hand. The Fuji GA645zi had a 4-stage zoom lens and a digital medium format version of this would be a powerful compact tool.

 

Nick

[Nick_S]

A digital equivalent of the old Fuji or Bronica 645 would seem to be feasible within the not so distant future. I guess it would be something like a Leica X1 with an S2 sensor. I owned the mechanical version of the Fuji (GS645S) and it was no bulkier than a large 35 mm camera in the hand. The Fuji GA645zi had a 4-stage zoom lens and a digital medium format version of this would be a powerful compact tool.

 

Nick

[adan]

I think the basic premise is flawed - I see no evidence that larger-than-35mm sensors are making, or will make, any significant advance in consumer-level cameras.

 

At the shop, we have had nobody come in asking for Hasselblad- or Pentax 645-size digital cameras - but lots of people asking for P&S-sized cameras, though (often "downsizing" by trading in their 35mm film cameras in the process).

 

For the vast majority of consumers, that has been the trend for the past 100 years (large roll-film Kodaks, then 35mm, then 110 film, then Minox-sized digital sensors). There has been a "real advantage in picture quality" in using bigger film ever since Daguerre - but that was of no interest to the vast majority of camera users, who prefer "good enough and small enough."

 

The magic of digital technology (Moore's law, etc.) lies in making things ever smaller and cheaper/faster. Bigger sensors lose those benefits, as well as introducing their own problems (heat, power drain, manufacturing losses).

 

The fact that Shriro sold off Hasselblad, and Hoya is unloading Pentax (not to mention the repeated collapses of Rollei) speaks volumes about the viability of cameras with larger-than-35mm sensors. My own prediction is that within the next 5 years we'll see fewer large-format sensors, with at least one of the current companies (Phase-One/Mamiya, Pentax, Hassy) closing up shop altogether.

 

I expect Sony will kill off their 24x36 cameras within a few years, as well (and not for something bigger).

 

You want to worry about your 35mm lenses? Worry about cellphones....

[adan]

I think the basic premise is flawed - I see no evidence that larger-than-35mm sensors are making, or will make, any significant advance in consumer-level cameras.

 

At the shop, we have had nobody come in asking for Hasselblad- or Pentax 645-size digital cameras - but lots of people asking for P&S-sized cameras, though (often "downsizing" by trading in their 35mm film cameras in the process).

 

For the vast majority of consumers, that has been the trend for the past 100 years (large roll-film Kodaks, then 35mm, then 110 film, then Minox-sized digital sensors). There has been a "real advantage in picture quality" in using bigger film ever since Daguerre - but that was of no interest to the vast majority of camera users, who prefer "good enough and small enough."

 

The magic of digital technology (Moore's law, etc.) lies in making things ever smaller and cheaper/faster. Bigger sensors lose those benefits, as well as introducing their own problems (heat, power drain, manufacturing losses).

 

The fact that Shriro sold off Hasselblad, and Hoya is unloading Pentax (not to mention the repeated collapses of Rollei) speaks volumes about the viability of cameras with larger-than-35mm sensors. My own prediction is that within the next 5 years we'll see fewer large-format sensors, with at least one of the current companies (Phase-One/Mamiya, Pentax, Hassy) closing up shop altogether.

 

I expect Sony will kill off their 24x36 cameras within a few years, as well (and not for something bigger).

 

You want to worry about your 35mm lenses? Worry about cellphones....

[ho_co]

Keep in mind also that the 35mm frame is the de facto standard in digital. We talk about focal lengths in terms of 35mm equivalents. When a company has a "cropped sensor" (even the name refers to 35mm) camera, the demand is for "full-frame."

 

24 x 36 seems to have struck a chord, and I don't see mass-market products growing beyond it.

 

It'll be interesting to see if you're right.

[ho_co]

Keep in mind also that the 35mm frame is the de facto standard in digital. We talk about focal lengths in terms of 35mm equivalents. When a company has a "cropped sensor" (even the name refers to 35mm) camera, the demand is for "full-frame."

 

24 x 36 seems to have struck a chord, and I don't see mass-market products growing beyond it.

 

It'll be interesting to see if you're right.

[bbbonthemoon]

Well, I dont see any technical problem to make digital medium format camera in a size of current, say, canon 5d mark ii. Until the body is wide enough to accommodate the sensor(which cannot be minimized due to laws of optics), all the other parts eventually get smaller. Probably it will be possible to put one in M9-a-like size rangefinder body also :-)

 

The moment this product appears, at consumer price range, there will be no way back. How many people are lusting for S2 now? And I dont see any other road for camera companies to advance, other than enlarging the sensors. Popping megapixels out of 35mm sensor is already overkill. And how many customers are going to stick to the lesser 35mm sensor, when the greater one will be easily available at affordable price? Some for sure, but not enough to support the whole 35mm infrastructure prices probably.

[bbbonthemoon]

Well, I dont see any technical problem to make digital medium format camera in a size of current, say, canon 5d mark ii. Until the body is wide enough to accommodate the sensor(which cannot be minimized due to laws of optics), all the other parts eventually get smaller. Probably it will be possible to put one in M9-a-like size rangefinder body also :-)

 

The moment this product appears, at consumer price range, there will be no way back. How many people are lusting for S2 now? And I dont see any other road for camera companies to advance, other than enlarging the sensors. Popping megapixels out of 35mm sensor is already overkill. And how many customers are going to stick to the lesser 35mm sensor, when the greater one will be easily available at affordable price? Some for sure, but not enough to support the whole 35mm infrastructure prices probably.

[Jeff S]

History shows the opposite, as Andy well said; people generally opt for smaller, not bigger. And, if you're right that the 'parts' that surround the sensor will get smaller, then those same parts will make it into 35mm cameras, which will then remain smaller than your larger sensor formats.

 

But, who knows? That's what makes life interesting.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

History shows the opposite, as Andy well said; people generally opt for smaller, not bigger. And, if you're right that the 'parts' that surround the sensor will get smaller, then those same parts will make it into 35mm cameras, which will then remain smaller than your larger sensor formats.

 

But, who knows? That's what makes life interesting.

 

Jeff

[lct]

MF lenses will always be bulkier than FF as well. Aside from DoF and personal preference, there is no reason to carry such a burden while the resolving power of FF and smaller sensors will grow higher and higher with lesser and lesser digital noise.

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[lct]

MF lenses will always be bulkier than FF as well. Aside from DoF and personal preference, there is no reason to carry such a burden while the resolving power of FF and smaller sensors will grow higher and higher with lesser and lesser digital noise.