rosuna Posted July 19, 2011 Share #61 Posted July 19, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes who will teach anything to Leica in matter of lenses? A polite response could be Schneider or Zeiss perhaps but Panasonic folks you must be kidding don't you. Minolta was "teaching" Leica about zooms for a long time. There are areas in lens construction that are far Leica's traditional field of expertise. Even large japanese corporations with long experience in optics and electronics had to learn how to design lenses for efficient contrast-based AF (for instance, Olympus, with a second generation micro 4/3 lenses much improved). Who will teach anything to Olympus in 2009 in matter of lenses? Well, Panasonic taught them one thing or two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Hi rosuna, Take a look here Stefan Daniel: New M and APS-C soon?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share #62 Posted July 19, 2011 I must be missing something here. Aren't S lenses autofocus? Did Leica need any newcomer's help to design them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 19, 2011 Share #63 Posted July 19, 2011 I must be missing something here. Aren't S lenses autofocus? Did Leica need any newcomer's help to design them? Yes and No, depends which way you look at it. Of course Leica can design AF lens with minimum external help only snag is that these exclusive Leica S lens are rare as hens teeth while future compact mass market system equipment would have to be mass produced and abundant in the shops otherwise it would disappear under the onslaught of mass produced competition. German engineering have historical reputation for excellence that not always translate into volume production where competition wins the day with volume produced inferior equipment, like Tiger/Panther tanks vs Sherman/T34 counterparts - not the best analogy perhaps but principle is the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 19, 2011 Share #64 Posted July 19, 2011 Umm..Where was it stated that Leica wants to enter the mass market? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted July 19, 2011 Share #65 Posted July 19, 2011 The Minolta made Leica zoom lenses are the worst lenses in the "R" lineup. Not really up to Leica standards. Not much of a teacher if you ask me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
janki Posted July 19, 2011 Share #66 Posted July 19, 2011 Yes and No, depends which way you look at it. Of course Leica can design AF lens with minimum external help only snag is that these exclusive Leica S lens are rare as hens teeth while future compact mass market system equipment would have to be mass produced and abundant in the shops otherwise it would disappear under the onslaught of mass produced competition. German engineering have historical reputation for excellence that not always translate into volume production where competition wins the day with volume produced inferior equipment, like Tiger/Panther tanks vs Sherman/T34 counterparts - not the best analogy perhaps but principle is the same. Hi Mladen ! I'm not just any "racer" when it comes to reading English. The funny thing is, that while I used a few seconds reading the first lines of your post, I thought immediately of the analogy with these tanks ; - volume versus durability. And there it came, Tiger vs. Sherman, and not least, Phanter compared with T34. I think the comparison is relevant. We, who are on this forum, most likely have a fairly significant attraction to everything durable and well built. But it is of course crucial to find a balance. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/157030-stefan-daniel-new-m-and-aps-c-soon/?do=findComment&comment=1739273'>More sharing options...
pico Posted July 19, 2011 Share #67 Posted July 19, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica in the mass-market seems insane. Being relatively small and exclusive is one of their niches, and niches are of great value. What do the masses want? Cheap Merely adequate lenses Merely adequate sensors - they don't care if it's M43 or APS*, or if they are even good! Autofocus of ball-park accuracy Smaller is better - shirt pocket size or smaller Best if it is in a phone Crude motion picture capture Cool colors and/or custom skins at decals They are happy to shoot in the Zombie position LCD view - big and cheap, sharpness unnecessary A sound system with a couple ear buds and USB (FAT32) are good They drive cars that cost less than an M9 otherwise would spend S2 money on some other car. Instant pizza is food Jello-shots are drinks Budweiser is a beer Film does not exist Vietnam is a short walk-through page Korea never happened Wooden boats are potential bonfire material Cameras are an occasional painful necessity - usually for a school class The medium amateurs are covered by Panasonic, Nikon, Canon et al. The Leica other than the VLUX stand out in Leica's niche, regardless of its outstanding lens. So, who would put Leica into the mass market? Walmart? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 19, 2011 Share #68 Posted July 19, 2011 We, who are on this forum, most likely have a fairly significant attraction to everything durable and well built. Me too Wasn't the Tiger tank Czech? Best known piece of Czech designed WW2 military hardware was Bren machine gun, extensively used by British army. It this category real daddy was MG42, many years ago I knew how to take it apart and put back together. Tiger and Panther were WW2 German tanks both designed and built by German companies, I would imagine other heavy industries in occupied Europe were pressed into war production, Skoda was well known at the end of XIX century as armaments manufacturer. ... This is bit of diversion, my point in mentioning military hardware was that quality does not win over quantity. After all Leica barely survived transition into digital era. Translated into business environment, small production runs of exotic and expensive equipment with long development cycle is not the right formula to succeed in the long run in the field dominated by consumer grade goods. Succeed in niche market commanding astronomical prices yes but not in volume markets commanding competitive prices - rest assured competition is not sleeping on their laurels. There is good reason why Leica announced compact system camera - it is growing segment and you succeed in business by growth. If Leica wants to be successful in compact system market than it will have to play by the rules of this market otherwise another white elephant may be on its way - like DMR. You would imagine that Leica management emboldened by the M9/S2 success will play wise to the wider market demand and trends not to the whims of few daydreamers on LUF. I only wish that whatever they produce is FF and develops over time into sustainable system. I rest my case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share #69 Posted July 19, 2011 FF is another day dream i'm afraid but prices won't be aimed at masses you can trust me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 19, 2011 Share #70 Posted July 19, 2011 FF is another day dream i'm afraid but prices won't be aimed at masses you can trust me. Lets see goods first and talk price later APS-C does not rock my boat, besides I doubt many people here would buy crippled sensor to use precious M lenses. Would you be prepared to buy APS-C compact system camera and pay Leica premium over many similar cameras in the market already and more models to come before Koln 2012? FF is different story - could well be daydream of mine but i am happy to admit it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share #71 Posted July 19, 2011 Hehe i was the first official R-D1 buyer in Europe so i know the matter a little bit i guess. I like much my FF and APS-H stuff as well but APS-C + Leica lenses makes excellent combos really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 19, 2011 Share #72 Posted July 19, 2011 Leica in the mass-market seems insane. Being relatively small and exclusive is one of their niches, and niches are of great value. It seems to me that most mass-market consumer cameras have a high level of robustness in that they don't have various electronic "hiccups" and are made with great precision due to increased levels of automated construction and assembly. I think the electronic components - sensors, image processors, LCD screens, AF sensors, AF motors, etc., and various processing algorithms are dependent on the mass market to justify the R&D costs. I don't think Leica does much or any of this R&D or fabrication and will be buying mass produced components for their cameras whenever possible. A Nikon manual focus 50mm 1.4 retails for $400 and a Summilux 50 is $3700. I think if Nikon, Canon, Sony, Panasonic, or pretty much any other company knew it could sell a decent quantity of high quality manual focusing prime M mount lenses for the prices Leica can charge, they'd find a way to meet that same quality level or surpass it. But we don't know if the reverse is true and I doubt if Leica will be able to be successful with a mirrorless APS camera if they are aiming at a market where the body will retail for $2000 and each lens will be in the $1500-$5,000 range. After all it will be using the same or similar electronics and other components as its cheaper competitors and won't be able to distinguish itself image quality wise or via more features or better construction. My guess is that Leica has its hands full building the M and S2 systems and will contract out for as much as possible just as Apple and many other companies do now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 19, 2011 Share #73 Posted July 19, 2011 I must be missing something here. Aren't S lenses autofocus? Did Leica need any newcomer's help to design them? AF lenses for contrast-based algorithms, and AF lenses for video, etc. need special designs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 19, 2011 Share #74 Posted July 19, 2011 So, why don't the Japanese companies step up to the plate and sell a $3000 Summilux killer? Leica can't make enough, so there is a huge latent demand. There are no legal issues to worry about Who has said that the lenses will be five grand.? I bet these lenses will be sourced from outside Germany. The demand is not really huge and the perception of the demand and some of the price is artificially inflated due to the scarcity. There is that little matter of 6 bit coding. Nikon could look back to the early 50s and say "Been there, done that." I don't think too many Leica owners will pay $3,800 for a Nikkor 50 1.4 in M mount no matter how good it is. Nikon and other companies know this. I don't think they see enough market and financial return for those lenses to justify the work required. I agree that the way for Leica to go with the APS camera is to source lenses from outside of Germany because the premium that M users are willing to pay for lenses will not transfer to an APS camera. Didn't I write that clearly enough already? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 19, 2011 Share #75 Posted July 19, 2011 ... Would you be prepared to buy APS-C compact system camera and pay Leica premium over many similar cameras in the market already and more models to come before Koln 2012? .... quote] This is surely one of the questions that Leica Mktg has in is mind... for ME (as a M8-only owner - notice - no FF) the answer could be yes - depending of course on price... but, briefly said , I'd like the idea of a sort of X1 sized camera with EVF and that I can enjoy even acquiring the body only... deciding with no hassle if a (supposed) AF M mount zoom is worth... ... but I already have many fine Leica lenses... and this is the difference from a "new" market they must target.... So they have to invent something SMART, "differentiated" as they say, and right positioned in costs... best whishes to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 19, 2011 Share #76 Posted July 19, 2011 ... Would you be prepared to buy APS-C compact system camera and pay Leica premium over many similar cameras in the market already and more models to come before Koln 2012? .... quote] This is surely one of the questions that Leica Mktg has in is mind... for ME (as a M8-only owner - notice - no FF) the answer could be yes - depending of course on price... but, briefly said , I'd like the idea of a sort of X1 sized camera with EVF and that I can enjoy even acquiring the body only... deciding with no hassle if a (supposed) AF M mount zoom is worth... ... but I already have many fine Leica lenses... and this is the difference from a "new" market they must target.... So they have to invent something SMART, "differentiated" as they say, and right positioned in costs... best whishes to them. I while back there was DMR, true masterpiece, very well regarded however sold grand total of 2200 units http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/DMR I think Leica marketing will have that lesson in mind. BTW I too have many fine M and R lenses and thanks to Segnor David Llado of Leitax I can use most of them on Nikon FF Film/DSLR. Only thing that keeps me wanting suitable FF solution form Leica is to use digitally my Elmarit 19mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 19, 2011 Share #77 Posted July 19, 2011 I while back there was DMR, true masterpiece, very well regarded however sold grand total of 2200 units http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/DMR I think Leica marketing will have that lesson in mind.. In this context it might be useful to mention that Leica stopped selling the DMR for lack of parts, not lack of customers, it seems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 19, 2011 Share #78 Posted July 19, 2011 In this context it might be useful to mention that Leica stopped selling the DMR for lack of parts, not lack of customers, it seems. If they went to bed with likes of Panasonic or Sony instead of Imacon maybe there would be FF third generation DMR today, Sony is happily selling sensors to Nikon, but please don't start CCD vs CMOS debate. Another expensive lesson from which Leica strategists hopefully learned something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted July 19, 2011 Share #79 Posted July 19, 2011 I suspect that at least some of the low sales of DMRs has to do with their being forced to stop producing the units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 19, 2011 Share #80 Posted July 19, 2011 With respect, whatever the DMR history, it required an R8 or R9 body. Those were not a success for Leica Camera despite some superb lenses. People will recall the heavy discounting to clear the moribund stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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