earleygallery Posted July 17, 2011 Share #41 Posted July 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) The idea of an EVF APSC camera body, with say 3 AF lenses that happen to be designed around an M mount (but obviously incorporating motors and covering the smaller sensor size = not useable on other M rangefinder cameras) makes the most sense. We know the aren't going to go down the micro 4/3rds route, and if we take Mr Daniel at his word, they aren't going to design a new lens mount, so what else can it be? They will then claw back some of the market lost to M users who buy the m4/3rds cameras as 'backups' or whatever, and have another niche camera as a stepping stone from the X1 to the M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Hi earleygallery, Take a look here Stefan Daniel: New M and APS-C soon?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
menos I M6 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #42 Posted July 18, 2011 How would AF DSLR lenses that lack an aperture ring work? Most AF lenses without direct aperture control do have a mechanical linkage to their native camera body. There are adaptors (the only way, to use these SLR lenses on a camera, which has the mount closer to the sensor), which provide aperture control for example for Nikkor lenses for µ4/3. After playing a bit with µ4/3, having a new, unused GH2 body laying in storage, I cam to the conclusion, that mounting anything bigger than the native very compact lenses to these small cameras makes no sense from a usability standpoint. I conclude, this amounts to the same, should there be a compact Leica system with EVF and exchangeable lenses via M mount. LCT, I was responding specifically to Leica did produce the C lenses, which had an M mount but weren't fully M compatible, but I don't think Leica would produce a lens with M mount with less than full-frame coverage. There's no place to add contacts for AF paraphernalia to the M mount. The glass is already cramped for space in a lot of today's lenses. … There can be added electronic contacts to the existing M mount in a similar fashion, as the 6-bit code reader. As the new system camera is rumored, to have a APS-C crop sensor only, it is likely, that new AF lenses for this camera system will have an AF M-mount with optics, designed for a smaller image circle (hence the choice of readily available APS-C sensors over 1.3x crop sensors), to give space for internal AF motors and mechanics. The lenses will very likely be designed with the help of Panasonic and will be optimized for AF (different lens designs with internal focus, low mass moving focussing optics, lighter body materials, etc…). The beauty of this idea is, that the new system camera will be fully compatible with a range (excluding exotic deep shroud or odd ball lenses) of M mount lenses, adapted LTM lenses and many adapted lenses of other manufacturers, but will also offer a small set of AF lenses (slower aperture, likely one or two primes + one or two zooms, one being likely a zuper zoom of a kind, similar to the Panasonic 100-300 zoom, extending a compact Leica into long lens shooting). I will look forward to this. It seems more interesting than using a GH-2 with adaptors for M-lenses. I know, this has been beaten, and this is the first time, I state my hope about this, but I really hope for some sort of image stabilization in the body, to help hand held long lens shooting, while manually focussing. This is a real issue, when using a 135mm M mount lens on a µ4/3 body with the EVF and it's negative effects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2011 Share #43 Posted July 18, 2011 Umm.. How can Panasonic help Leica with lens design? . Leica is the one helping Panasonic.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #44 Posted July 18, 2011 Umm.. How can Panasonic help Leica with lens design? . Leica is the one helping Panasonic.... I think, Leica can quite learn a few things from Panasonic, when it comes about translating M mount designs into completely different APS-C AF lenses. Think plastic injection moulding, aluminum and magnesium alloy die casting, in lens focus mechanisms at maximum space restrictions. AF controllers, etc… It would be wrong, to think, Leica engineers are the know it all people, some here in the forum often make them look to be ;-) Sure there is the AF S system. The question are: Is it an advanced AF system in regards of contemporary performance? Is it as space and weight constrained? I don't question Leica's superiority in regards of optical design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share #45 Posted July 18, 2011 Panasonic's never made APS lenses AFAIK contrary to Leica (X1). Not sure if the maker of S lenses needs to learn anything from a newcomer like Pana. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #46 Posted July 18, 2011 Now that I think about it, you guys must be right - Leica is the best. They cannot learn from those newcomers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2011 Share #47 Posted July 18, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think, Leica can quite learn a few things from Panasonic, when it comes about translating M mount designs into completely different APS-C AF lenses. Think plastic injection moulding, aluminum and magnesium alloy die casting, in lens focus mechanisms at maximum space restrictions. AF controllers, etc… It would be wrong, to think, Leica engineers are the know it all people, some here in the forum often make them look to be ;-) Sure there is the AF S system. The question are: Is it an advanced AF system in regards of contemporary performance? Is it as space and weight constrained? I don't question Leica's superiority in regards of optical design. Well.I think their partner for precision die-casting etc., Uwe Weller GmbH, could teach the rest of the world a thing or two. I don't think Leica needs look East,. http://www.weller-feinwerktechnik.de/en/ And I don't believe Panasonic produces lenses like the newest floating elements Leica ones with mechanical tolerances down to 1/1000th of a mm. Reading the AF comments and other remarks in other threads about their partner, I think a link to the Jenoptic site is useful: http://www.jenoptik-inc.com/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #48 Posted July 18, 2011 Well.I think their partner for precision die-casting etc., Uwe Weller GmbH, could teach the rest of the world a thing or two. I don't think Leica needs look East,. Weller Feinwerktechnik GmbHAnd I don't believe Panasonic produces lenses like the newest floating elements Leica ones with mechanical tolerances down to 1/1000th of a mm. Reading the AF comments and other remarks in other threads about their partner, I think a link to the Jenoptic site is useful: JENOPTIK Optical Systems, Inc Jaap, with all due respect to the fine performance and achievements of Uwe Weller and employees, they don't seem, to have anything to do with die casting, but are first and foremost specialized in CNC machining, cutting, grinding and surface treatments - all on the highest level of precision in a vector of cost far out of reach for anything to produce at reasonable prices in terms, AF lenses. One can think of new APS-C Leica AF lenses for a mirror less system in the price range of 2.000 − 4.000 EUR/ lens for slowish zooms with a manufacturing process, as supplied by Leica' s main machining supplier for current mechanical lens constructions. If this is the range, so be it. I deem a more enthusiast/ mid range approach more realistic (think current Nikon pro lens build with die casting frames, CFK enhanced plastic injection molded components, electronics, AF motors + Leica made, expensive optical elements, although Leica designed, Japanese made optical components are more likely at a reasonable price target). This will be expensive enough already. Let's get surprised. I am a technical consultant in rapid prototyping, machining, die casting, tooling, metal sheet, assembly and many things more, currently on assignment in China, managing a production plant of a German manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeplanter Posted July 18, 2011 Share #49 Posted July 18, 2011 .....They will then claw back some of the market lost to M users who buy the m4/3rds cameras as 'backups' or whatever, and have another niche camera as a stepping stone from the X1 to the M. Thats what I did. I picked up an Olympus E-P1 so as to use my Leica M lenses (as well as LTM lenses). I'd switch back to a Leica live-view APS camera in a shot, if they make one. Jim B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 18, 2011 Share #50 Posted July 18, 2011 Stefan Daniel: « le M9 ne durera pas 18 ans comme l'a fait le M6 (…). Une période de trois ans me semble un bon cycle de vie pour un boîtier numérique ». Free translation: The M9 will not last 18 years as the M6 did (…). A three years period seems to me a good life cycle for a digital body. That's the only part of S. Daniel's remarks that interests me. An APS-C with EVF/rear-screen-view doesn't even interest me now at the prices of the Oly/Sony/Panny+add-on EVF+M-adapter. Double the price for a red dot? No spank you. Even the M9's replacement will have to be one helluva bump in image quality to get me to shell out that kind of coin again. And I don't mean the sort of Emperor's New Clothes rationale it took to consider the M9's IQ significantly improved from the M8. I'm not saying the M9 can't be improved upon enough to tempt me. I'm just waiting to see if Leica does, and (perhaps this is selfish, but it's my opinion) I'd rather see them channel all their resources into their one exclusive niche rather than try expanding into territory populated by other manufacturers with much greater resources. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 18, 2011 Share #51 Posted July 18, 2011 Leica also needs to fix the firmware bug(s) in the current M9 first. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted July 18, 2011 Share #52 Posted July 18, 2011 Leica also needs to fix the firmware bug(s) in the current M9 first. K-H. Hi K-H You mean before they do a M9-P? I never like software 'fixed' - work arounds are lower risk... Leica only need to sell 30-40k M10 at their normal prices this would allow them to try for a S replacement rather than any real investment for the M future - whoops forgot :[cynical]: smiley. And addressing previous posts... Part of the M chassis have been an thin wall Al casting from the M3. I thought M (and LTM) lens prices were climbing a bit already... Be patient. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 18, 2011 Share #53 Posted July 18, 2011 K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 18, 2011 Share #54 Posted July 18, 2011 .....Let's get surprised I am a technical consultant in rapid prototyping, machining, die casting, tooling, metal sheet, assembly and many things more, currently on assignment in China, managing a production plant of a German manufacturer. Indeed... the more I think of this issue of AF Zoom for APS... the more I think that it will be very difficult to design them with the unique "feel" of a classic M lens... and even if they made splendid zooms for their SLRs years ago, APS+AF (for a camera that MUST be around X1 size) is all another biz... let's hope they surprise us with something "smart"... they can renounce, in part, to the feel/design of M primes... but must do something "nice and special" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 18, 2011 Share #55 Posted July 18, 2011 The idea of an EVF APSC camera body, with say 3 AF lenses that happen to be designed around an M mount (but obviously incorporating motors and covering the smaller sensor size = not useable on other M rangefinder cameras) makes the most sense............. I don't know James, I think such a lens ought to have an image circle that will cover full-frame. That way it would compatible with the upcoming auto-focus M10;). Incoming.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 18, 2011 Share #56 Posted July 18, 2011 I don't know James, I think such a lens ought to have an image circle that will cover full-frame. That way it would compatible with the upcoming auto-focus M10. Incoming.......... That's BLASPHEMY ... a M camera with autofocus ? Naaaahhhh.... some smart form of focus confirmation, yes, focus decided by the camera with a buzzing noise, NEVER !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted July 18, 2011 Share #57 Posted July 18, 2011 Umm.. How can Panasonic help Leica with lens design? . Leica is the one helping Panasonic.... Leica is peerless when it comes to designing and manufacturing optical cells but Leica is not consumer electronics business. Modern camera has more to do with consumer electronics than precision mechanics of the M3 era. Modern mass produced camera lens is more than optical cell. Leica gets volume sales by joining forces with mass producer of consumer electronics, Panasonic gets brand reinforced and sales increased by association to the daddy of portable photography. In business this is called synergy. I only wish regardless collaboration or Leica's own effort result is FF camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2011 Share #58 Posted July 18, 2011 Umm...This part of the discussion was about the design and building of lenses. What has that to do with consumer electronics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share #59 Posted July 18, 2011 Yes who will teach anything to Leica in matter of lenses? A polite response could be Schneider or Zeiss perhaps but Panasonic folks you must be kidding don't you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 19, 2011 Share #60 Posted July 19, 2011 ... design and building of lenses. What has that to do with consumer electronics? Lenses of other brands have contained electronic subsystems for the last two or three decades. Those subsystems have to have some degree of robustness as they are being used by consumers under less than ideal conditions. The reference to consumer electronics seems apt to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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