Alberti Posted July 5, 2011 Share #1 Posted July 5, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I recently made a picture, while I still had the camera in the settings of an earlier eveing shot: at 1250 A. It is 1/8000 and F 4 or so. Overcast, daylight I was midday. I expected the picture to be worthless. But in fact it looks very very good... No grain, sharp, almost a 160 A picture! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! And here is a 100 % crop from the area I focussed. Tack sharp (as the Summicrom 50 is). Also here I hesitate - don't see more than a hint in the form of the common digital artifacts exept some digital grain in the grays. Is that because it is actually overexposed? (the shutter squeezed out a 1/8000 sec, so might have needed even less). This looks is better than 640 A imho. Has anyone tried overexposing systematically with say +1 EV or more? I would love to see the EXIF info but my Cornerfix version (Mac) does not help me too much on the data. Curious albert Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! And here is a 100 % crop from the area I focussed. Tack sharp (as the Summicrom 50 is). Also here I hesitate - don't see more than a hint in the form of the common digital artifacts exept some digital grain in the grays. Is that because it is actually overexposed? (the shutter squeezed out a 1/8000 sec, so might have needed even less). This looks is better than 640 A imho. Has anyone tried overexposing systematically with say +1 EV or more? I would love to see the EXIF info but my Cornerfix version (Mac) does not help me too much on the data. Curious albert ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1724148'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Hi Alberti, Take a look here On the quality of 1250 ASA. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Erik Gunst Lund Posted July 5, 2011 Share #2 Posted July 5, 2011 Yes a great ISO1250 shot, as expected as the exposure is right on target, not +1 overexposure... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted July 5, 2011 Share #3 Posted July 5, 2011 I agree. After changing the firmware, I did some tests at 1250 iso , but I do not know whether Albert was agreed that I post here on his thread Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 5, 2011 Share #4 Posted July 5, 2011 It was my experience on the M8 as well when I made the same mistake. Actually I somehow preferred the look of the 1250 ISO shots in print, Less artificial, somehow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted July 5, 2011 I agree.After changing the firmware, I did some tests at 1250 iso , but I do not know whether Albert was agreed that I post here on his thread Best Henry Hi Doc, Of course you can post here! This is about knowledge sharing isn't it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted July 5, 2011 Share #6 Posted July 5, 2011 Thanks Albert, This picture is taken from the window of my house, with M8 and 90mm MacroElmar The 12th century chapel is being restored and is at a distance of 70 meters Grain at iso 1250 is good in my opinion Iso 1250 , 1/750 sec, at 6.00 pm, cloudy that day Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and crop : Picture uncorrected Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and crop : Picture uncorrected Best Henry ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1724401'>More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share #7 Posted July 5, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Doc Henry, Indeed no real grain. Its actually a bit soft. - the picture shows me also that you have no moire on the church roof. That is a very difficult shot. Do you have that on other shots of this view? This might be due to a coarse filter being applied at 1250 A, I guess. albert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fWord Posted July 6, 2011 Share #8 Posted July 6, 2011 Coming from ISO 1250 photos of a Canon 1Ds MKI, I personally have no issues with even the ISO 2500 photos (which is really ISO 3200 if measurements at DPReview are to be believed) on the M8. With the advent of digital there appears to be a good number of people who are hopping mad if their ISO 3200 photos are not smooth as a baby's bottom. IMHO, luminance noise adds 'grain' and character while chrominance noise is not difficult to control with software. Of course, you could also add 'grain' if there wasn't any to start off with, but really I think some of us worry too much about image noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted July 6, 2011 I agree 100% with that. Well exposed this works a marvel. To show some grain structure that is natural, another "wrongly selected" 1250 A, 100% crop on the same day: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! There is real nice grain here, no adjustments whatsoever, F 2.8 (real) and again 1/8000 sec. So I guess here too overexposed (EV of about 18 leads to 1/16.000), note that this was through a pane of plexiglass. Now I am at it, the first 1250 shot posted here one was slight sun, F 4.8 (or really a bit more) and a guestimated EV looking at the conditions afterwards of about 19, again requiring between 1/8.000 and 1/16.000 sec so it was probably better on target). Well exposed, with 640 ASA there is hardly grain in general too and it works good, and a crop: The latter, in the evening after 8 PM, handheld, it still is acceptable, up to the point that you might like to see more grain, micro contrast like film. But to me it is better than I ever had at such an enlargement in negative film! If I compare this shot with 160 asa in full daylight - the street sign is just a bit better readable. Personally, I have more problems with shooting hand-held than anyotherthing. albert Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! There is real nice grain here, no adjustments whatsoever, F 2.8 (real) and again 1/8000 sec. So I guess here too overexposed (EV of about 18 leads to 1/16.000), note that this was through a pane of plexiglass. Now I am at it, the first 1250 shot posted here one was slight sun, F 4.8 (or really a bit more) and a guestimated EV looking at the conditions afterwards of about 19, again requiring between 1/8.000 and 1/16.000 sec so it was probably better on target). Well exposed, with 640 ASA there is hardly grain in general too and it works good, and a crop: The latter, in the evening after 8 PM, handheld, it still is acceptable, up to the point that you might like to see more grain, micro contrast like film. But to me it is better than I ever had at such an enlargement in negative film! If I compare this shot with 160 asa in full daylight - the street sign is just a bit better readable. Personally, I have more problems with shooting hand-held than anyotherthing. albert ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1725335'>More sharing options...
Telyt2003 Posted July 6, 2011 Share #10 Posted July 6, 2011 I recently made a picture, while I still had the camera in the settings of an earlier eveing shot: at 1250 A. It is 1/8000 and F 4 or so. Overcast, daylightI was midday. I expected the picture to be worthless. But in fact it looks very very good... No grain, sharp, almost a 160 A picture! ... And here is a 100 % crop from the area I focussed. Tack sharp (as the Summicrom 50 is). Also here I hesitate - don't see more than a hint in the form of the common digital artifacts exept some digital grain in the grays. ... Is that because it is actually overexposed? (the shutter squeezed out a 1/8000 sec, so might have needed even less). This looks is better than 640 A imho. Has anyone tried overexposing systematically with say +1 EV or more? ... Curious albert Hi Albert, the ISO 640 and 1250 settings of the M8 are almost fully usable to my experience. The theory behind this I have learned years ago in this forum from posts by the experts (and several professionals; I have not looked up the links yet ...) Personally, I often need shutter speeds as short as possible, and therefore raise the sensitivity, mostly at least to ISO640 (in daylight). It is important not to UNDER-expose with ISO640 (or ISO1250). Before risking under-exposure, I normally switch to ISO1250. A correctly exposed ISO1250 photo will look better than an under-exposed ISO640 photo in most situations (even more so, if you are doing some post-processing). At the same time, I would also avoid OVER-exposure with the higher ISO settings, because highlights will 'burn' much faster with them. (Your image does not look over-exposed to me, but just exactly as it should with a high ISO setting). In conclusion, a careful (correct) exposure becomes more important (necessary) than raising the ISO setting since it can no longer be corrected in post-processing (or at least not much), and to avoid grain/noise. At the same time, the exposure should be at the long end (as long as possible without over-exposing the image parts which should not be 'burned') to avoid noise/grain to the maximum. When exposed in such a way, especially with ISO1250, you can make the most of these image in post-processing by carefully lowering the highlights, midtones and shadows (al gusto) with the help of the 'curves' (personally I often opt for a slightly sigmoid curve a tiny bit below the linear graph with ISO1250 photos exposed close to saturation). Thereby, you retain most of the detail and avoid most of the grain/noise. (The other way around, under-exposing or weakly exposing and raising the exposure compensation and/or 'curves' in post, makes noise/grain much worse in my experience). Here are a few example images taken with ISO640 and 1250, and dark areas: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/nature-wildlife/189197-black-stork-mimicking-rainbow.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1754281-post35.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1744242-post338.html For sure, all this I mainly do in relatively bright light situations. In the 'darkness' - with vast dark, necessarily 'under-exposed', areas making up a big part of the image, the limits (of the higher sensitivities) are reached more clearly. Probably, these proposals are even more important (and more difficult) to follow in situations with mostly dark background. Best regards, Telyt2003 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted July 6, 2011 Thanks, this opens a new venue of use with the camera! In the years I have chosen too often I think for low ISO. I agree that upping a lowly lit image is a hard task; still I often like to convey the idea of darkness - for example in my 640A shot of the Duomo in Florence, it was evening. No need to expose like broad daylight - it would ruin the atmosphere; and don't do postprocessing like + 0,3 EV, it ruins the details. Maybe it is an idea for me to select auto-iso with lowest speed 1/1000 and as highest ISO 1250, setting expose compensation at 0. Specially with long lenses (and generally even spread of light) this should work fine. I'll try. I like the tiger in your second example, 1250 gives all the detail with which the signature of the lens is very well supported. albert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted July 6, 2011 Share #12 Posted July 6, 2011 Hi Doc Henry, Indeed no real grain. Its actually a bit soft. - the picture shows me also that you have no moire on the church roof. That is a very difficult shot. Do you have that on other shots of this view? This might be due to a coarse filter being applied at 1250 A, I guess. albert ... sorry Albert for the late response (absent a few days for a congress) I have UV/IR filter on my MacroElmar 90mm For the moire, angle shooting may be important Here's another photo taken today in light at ISO 1250 1 / 3000 with a 50mm Summilux asph after downloading the new firmware Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! crop 110 % picture uncorrected Montparnasse tower Paris quite good in my opinion Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! crop 110 % picture uncorrected Montparnasse tower Paris quite good in my opinion Best Henry ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1726132'>More sharing options...
adan Posted July 7, 2011 Share #13 Posted July 7, 2011 Always remember that any ISO will perform better in "daylight" that has full-spectrum white light. What eats into the quality of high ISO shots in most cases is that "low light" also usually means yellowish artificial light (tungsten, halogen or fluorescents). To which the blue filters in the Bayer array are completely opaque. It is the process of trying to restore some life into a "dead" blue channel through white balancing that pushes the overall noisiness off the scale. Feed a camera lots of light, with no shortage of the blue wavelengths to correct for, and it is easy to lose about 1-2 stops of noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 7, 2011 Share #14 Posted July 7, 2011 Problem is less highlight noise than shadow noise folks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted July 9, 2011 Share #15 Posted July 9, 2011 Hi Albert, As Adan requested, I took the other day with the new firmware, our cathedral * illuminated at iso 1250 in full dark (11.30 pm) here is the result in normal view : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and crop 100% upper left quadrant: M8 Summilux 35mm asph - f :1/4 1/3sec + tripod (picture uncorrected) Your opinion ? Best Henry * http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/landscape-travel/186029-cathedral-color.html Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and crop 100% upper left quadrant: M8 Summilux 35mm asph - f :1/4 1/3sec + tripod (picture uncorrected) Your opinion ? Best Henry * http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/landscape-travel/186029-cathedral-color.html ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1729043'>More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share #16 Posted July 10, 2011 Hi Albert, As Adan requested, I took the other day with the new firmware, our cathedral * illuminated at iso 1250 in full dark (11.30 pm) Your opinion ? Best Henry Henry, this is just fantastic. Very nice type of sharpness and detail, rendering in a pleasing kind of softness (it has character). How did you get the double exposure? I thought only an M6 could allow that - It's Reims cathedral isn't it? The mix of the projected image (source - something like tungsten or xenon at least) is in the direction of the evening light mix. You did direct from camera JPEG? I peeked in the file: White Balance: Auto Scene Capture Type: Standard Contrast: Normal Saturation: Normal Sharpness: Normal I found myself that in-camera gives a very good result in high iso (and sharpening can be at par almost with DNG/C1 output, when combined with a camera setting of 'low' sharpening). I'll do some test shots myself. The ones I have are previous software release. albert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted July 10, 2011 Share #17 Posted July 10, 2011 Henry, this is just fantastic. Very nice type of sharpness and detail, rendering in a pleasing kind of softness (it has character). How did you get the double exposure? I thought only an M6 could allow that - It's Reims cathedral isn't it? The mix of the projected image (source - something like tungsten or xenon at least) is in the direction of the evening light mix. You did direct from camera JPEG? I peeked in the file: White Balance: Auto Scene Capture Type: Standard Contrast: Normal Saturation: Normal Sharpness: Normal I found myself that in-camera gives a very good result in high iso (and sharpening can be at par almost with DNG/C1 output, when combined with a camera setting of 'low' sharpening). I'll do some test shots myself. The ones I have are previous software release. albert Hi Albert, The M8 is still good for service, in my opinion Yes it's the Cathedral of Reims. This year, we celebrate the 800th anniversary of its construction and the theme is "Dreams of Light" No, it's coming from M8-DNG and converted in JPEG for posting but in direct M8-JPEG (i shoot in DNG + JPEG) , it's also good for clarity and sharpness Another picture but at "640 iso" : please note the color quality, as in the light Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M8 Iso 640 + 35mm lux asph + f 1/4 +1/8 sec + tripod Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M8 Iso 640 + 35mm lux asph + f 1/4 +1/8 sec + tripod Best Henry ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1729885'>More sharing options...
mbray Posted July 10, 2011 Share #18 Posted July 10, 2011 I used 640 the other evening for some shots of a school play. The grain was just fine, and in general I was very happy with the results. The only problem was that the pictures showed up "hot pixels", four of them, one with the associated line. Using Pixel Fixer as recommended, at 1250 with the lens cap on, none of these pixel were mapped, but at 640, they were. The comment about shadow noise seems to make sense. I have also found that different RAW processors do make a difference with the Adobe RAW in PSE8 much smoother (softer) than other more sophisticated programs. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted July 17, 2011 The "new" 1250 amazes me. It has a charming quality that can be used to get rid exactly of what digital looks like. So some more 'experiments'. First an evening portrait, available light, 9 PM. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My wife happy with our new colored wall in the living room in the back, called F&B 'light blue', a color with many hues. It took us over a week to paint the whole house in several new 'shades of white'. Marvelous. Both 1250A, M8, late evening shots. With the new firmware this is a very nice speed for portraits. I created a style in C1 to get repeatable maximum results. Very much reduced or even no sharpening applied. enjoy, albert Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My wife happy with our new colored wall in the living room in the back, called F&B 'light blue', a color with many hues. It took us over a week to paint the whole house in several new 'shades of white'. Marvelous. Both 1250A, M8, late evening shots. With the new firmware this is a very nice speed for portraits. I created a style in C1 to get repeatable maximum results. Very much reduced or even no sharpening applied. enjoy, albert ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156098-on-the-quality-of-1250-asa/?do=findComment&comment=1737007'>More sharing options...
Alberti Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted July 17, 2011 Hi Albert,The M8 is still good for service, in my opinion This year, we celebrate the 800th anniversary of its construction and the theme is "Dreams of Light" Beautiful 'son et lumière', polychrome came to life! albert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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