menos I M6 Posted April 27, 2011 Share #21 Posted April 27, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks. Trying to find out which serial numbers are not affected by the notorious IR glass cracks... no luck. I see no written statements from Leica about this either. Anyone know what the recent stock serial numbers are? I would not worry about this either. The issue about the cracked sensor cover glass is a known issue, which will be fixed free of charge by Leica for you, should you come across it. Leica has a reputation of resolving quality issues with their product in a very satisfying fashion towards the customer (sometimes slow, but satisfactory). Buy a digital Leica Today and enjoy it. If it breaks, it breaks and will be repaired - simple as that. I use a second hand (mind you !) M8.2 on a daily basis since about a year. The camera has now over 30.000 actuations and keeps ticking without any issues. Leica users sometimes are a bit picky and tend, to take small issues serious. the nice thing about this and other Leica user fora is, that one can ask questions and get educated with the experience of other users. The issue, described in this thread could be two fold, depending on unknown factors to all visitors of this thread except the shooter itself. It could be a sensor issue, if the pattern shows already very early (1 or 1 1/2 stops underexposure), just on one side (the Leica sensor is managed in a left and a right half, which can be seen in a different behavior especially when pushing several stops). It could be just pushing shadows too much in an otherwise contrasty scene (this can only the shooter examine, as nobody else knows, how the light really was during exposure). Leica files are generally very robust (thanks Alan for the demonstration), but do tend, to fall apart in severely underexposed shadows. The first, to see is noise (obviously), followed by horizontal patterns, which will show up, followed by vertical pixel lines with defective sensors (possibly repairable by pixel mapping, sometimes only repairable by sensor swapping), followed by distinctively different brightness levels of both sensor halves (only repairable by sensor unit swapping). The digital Leica does not step into regions of a Nikon D3, but generally, one has a very wide spectrum of usable ISO speed and dynamic range. Careful processing with good technique and the right software is key for clean files, if this is, what the user is after. To really find out about the file quality, one indeed has to try one, as inspecting images on the internet doesn't teach one much, as you don't know the missing pieces in the puzzle (which lighting conditions during the exposure, exposure values, processing steps, noise reduction, etc…). When I used the M8.2 the first time, used to Nikon DSLRs before that, I cursed the limited ISO speed and early noise, cursed the much more critical shooting discipline ("exposure to the right", never, ever underexpose shadows, etc…), but I truly loved the incredible detail and sharpness, no other digital, I tried before has given me. You have to take things in your hand and try one. You either fall in love or sell it again. Sweating technical facts will not help you make a decision, nor does waiting for the next model, as this can be next month or in a few years with Leica. The quality of the M9 by todays standards is already so advanced and it's picture taking qualities so refined, that one would think about it being the only digital camera necessary, to buy and keep for many years to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 27, 2011 Posted April 27, 2011 Hi menos I M6, Take a look here Leica M9 - problem with stripes or banding across my images - please help!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
vanhulsenbeek Posted April 27, 2011 Share #22 Posted April 27, 2011 Thanks. Trying to find out which serial numbers are not affected by the notorious IR glass cracks... no luck. I see no written statements from Leica about this either. Anyone know what the recent stock serial numbers are? Voila, after 10 seconds search: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/133186-cracked-sensor-serial-numbers-only.html#post1395128 I wonder if this will get you anywhere. There seems to be a sort of feeling on this Forum that the problem has disappeared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 27, 2011 Share #23 Posted April 27, 2011 I don't know how far the originals have been pulled up. Quite a bit by the look of it, but if not, at ISO 160/320, something is certainly wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 27, 2011 Share #24 Posted April 27, 2011 bentarrow, IIRC, Stefan Daniel reported that the broken sensor glass problem was due to an assembly error at the subcontractor who builds the sensor unit. It has been taken care of. It's public knowledge, at least on the forum, even if Leica hasn't put it in print. Don't try to figure out which serial numbers may have the problem. Leica uses assigned serial numbers in batches, so 'problem' and 'no-problem' cameras may appear side by side. And you've got an even more specific response at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/130528-help-sensor-crack-11.html#post1686046. Just get an M9 and use it. You'll be annoyed by the amount of time you spent waiting, unless I miss my guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblutter Posted April 27, 2011 Share #25 Posted April 27, 2011 Banding or not - nice shots - very cool fashion look No one's going to notice - forget about it (I agree its probably underexposed shadow noise - shoot at 500 - should be fine for magazine work) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fang Posted April 27, 2011 Share #26 Posted April 27, 2011 Agree Banding or not - nice shots - very cool fashion look No one's going to notice - forget about it (I agree its probably underexposed shadow noise - shoot at 500 - should be fine for magazine work) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLC Posted April 27, 2011 Share #27 Posted April 27, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) send it in. i had a problem similar to this that would show its ugly head only while shooting jobs. finally got it in leicas hands with a couple of high res examples. they swapped out the sensor and circuit board. hard to tell if its fixed for it would show up intermittently but my camera is buffering images faster now so . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lua Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share #28 Posted April 27, 2011 well - to all of you - I have not been absolute clear about the history of this camera of mine. The camera has already been in for repair. I had the sensor changed. I also had the circuit board changed, as far as the repair report describes - - but still these stripes appear. I am a pro customer at Leica do feel it very awkward to turn to you all in this forum. Only am I looking for expertise to help describe what can cause this problem. I do photography as a living and I do know a lot about images - bugs - files - film - and tweaking. What recently just made me turn to you was the message from Leica that they acknowledge this problem that you can see in my files - but they do not know the cause and need serious feedback to get closer to what the problem might be. As some of you have asked for - here are the dng-files for download at my ftp. Link: http://thomasnielsen.dk/stripes.zip And please stick to the bottom line - we are in this world all interested in solving problems regarding this matter, so the M9 can continue being this great performer as it really is - It is a true joy to use every day!! Best /thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortega Posted April 28, 2011 Share #29 Posted April 28, 2011 Hmm... You are not pushing the files at all. That banding will appear if you lift an underexposed image. I see it all the time in poorly exposed images that are lifted too far. I would have thought that maybe it was a florescent light issue, but it looks like the window shot does not have florescent lights on anywhere. Are there strange lights on anywhere in these pics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted April 28, 2011 Share #30 Posted April 28, 2011 Dear Thomas, I understand what it's like to post a question in the Forum and be met with unhelpful if not derogatory comments. Sorry for your trouble. Thanks for taking the time to make the DNGs available. Now on to my test. I do not have C1, only LR and CS5. This morning I upgraded to their newest Camera Raw processors which were released yesterday (thanks Andy). Anyway, I got different results then you seem to be getting in C1 and I decided to do a little self-diagnosis. Image 1 I probably lifted the Exposure and Fill Light a little more than you did. Guys, I could lift the Exposure by 2 stops (while in Camera Raw) and any discernible banding dissipated rather than increased. I did use a little bit of Noise Reduction (Color and Luminance). This is what I got. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Image 2 I didn't raise the Exposure or Fill light, but increased the Black Point (Blacks Slider) and that is when I was able to replicate your problem to an extent. So I guess what I am trying to ask is could your Black Point have slipped upwards in your C1 software? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the application so I can't help you at this end. One other point. I had to send in my M9 to Leica recently (as you state you did) and my menus came back completely reset. In fact my camera was on DNG Compressed when I only like to shoot Uncompressed. Could that be part of the problem? Anyway, I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "which software is better?" thread. To restate, is it possible to reset the Black Point in C1? Wish I could be more helpful. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Image 2 I didn't raise the Exposure or Fill light, but increased the Black Point (Blacks Slider) and that is when I was able to replicate your problem to an extent. So I guess what I am trying to ask is could your Black Point have slipped upwards in your C1 software? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the application so I can't help you at this end. One other point. I had to send in my M9 to Leica recently (as you state you did) and my menus came back completely reset. In fact my camera was on DNG Compressed when I only like to shoot Uncompressed. Could that be part of the problem? Anyway, I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "which software is better?" thread. To restate, is it possible to reset the Black Point in C1? Wish I could be more helpful. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/150130-leica-m9-problem-with-stripes-or-banding-across-my-images-please-help/?do=findComment&comment=1657851'>More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted April 28, 2011 Share #31 Posted April 28, 2011 William, in both your crops, the issue is still visible, more so in the first (pushed) capture, although well hidden by the processing. Thomas, I suggest, you take a few captures with your M9 of an evenly lit subject (wall) and underexpose deliberately in manual exposure mode with the lens stopped down to f4 or f5.6. Shoot all frames at the same aperture, but vary shutter speed for the different exposures. Shoot the most underexposed frames as dark as almost black on your LCD. Add a reference subject (color checker card, bottle, plant, etc…) directly in the middle of the frame, to have an idea about the level of underexposure. You should look for the following: Evenly showing "image defects" (noise, "stripes") between both sensor halves from certain underexposure on (I cannot produce the stripes on the right side of your DNG files with pushing, which doesn't say much, as of the very unevenly lit frame in these two exposures, hence the "wall shots"). Both images are underexposed from the start, you should aim for exposures, which just don't clip the highlights with the Leica sensors and develop from there. As of this characteristic of these two frames, the shadow areas in your images on the left are already underexposed by several stops, to start with (hence the needed confirmation with "wall shots"). What will you find, when your sensor has an issue? 1) The stripes will occur as early as 1 1/2 stops underexposed, having shot in low ISO speeds - this is not normal. One can get these stripes (I only have the reference of a M8.2, which I use regularly in higher ISO speeds and push files), when shooting @ ~ ISO1250 and push 2 − 3 stops in normally exposed frames (no extensively deep shadows). 2) Unevenly exposed sensor halves. With a defective sensor/ circuit board, both sensor halves are unevenly sensitive. I have seen files from defective M8 sensors, which where as much as 1 stop apart between left and right image half after having have pushed the files mildly from high ISO shots (~ISO 1250). Should this occur, inquire with Leica Solms about the issue - this is not normal. Good luck with your findings. Nevertheless, your DNG files, reminded me again on how nice M9 DNG files are in terms of pushing in BW. You might well have given me another reason, to watch M9 prices decline and second hand samples getting available more and more ;-) PS: I use Adobe Lightroom 3.3 on Mac OS X 10.6 on a calibrated matte screen (Spyder 3 and basICColor display 4). I use Safari 5.04 for displaying this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted April 28, 2011 Share #32 Posted April 28, 2011 I processed these with LR 3.4. I give them as I'd process them for my own use + with 2 stops push on exposure. In the pushed versions there could be slight banding issues with image 1 and Image 2 has something going on - but I'm wondering if there was texture present in the wall? If not, then there may be something to look at. HOWEVER - I feel that it could be worth while experimenting with different RAW processing engines before making a final decision about the camera. You can also see from the noise around the text in the last image how JPEG artefacts might be exaggerating the effects - they look worse in the post than they do on screen. Hope this helps... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/150130-leica-m9-problem-with-stripes-or-banding-across-my-images-please-help/?do=findComment&comment=1658113'>More sharing options...
wattsy Posted April 28, 2011 Share #33 Posted April 28, 2011 The bands are clearly visible at 100% even without any exposure 'correction' (just default DNG conversion settings). It doesn't look like normal behaviour to me. I'm used to seeing plenty of noise in 'underexposed' areas - even at lower ISO values - but I don't recall seeing anything with such a regular pattern. I wonder if there is some interference from other electronic equipment (perhaps a mobile phone) going on here? The advice to try other RAW convertors is good but I think it will only take you so far. I see the banding clearly using Adobe Camera RAW, even without pushing the files. FWIW I ran the second file using my lazy raw conversion workflow (ACR and then adjustments in PS) and the stripes are still there. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/150130-leica-m9-problem-with-stripes-or-banding-across-my-images-please-help/?do=findComment&comment=1658129'>More sharing options...
Swanny Swanny Posted April 28, 2011 Share #34 Posted April 28, 2011 Hi all, find attached a picture i took last weekend taken in compressed & jpeg, other similar issue ones taken uncompressed DNG all with my M9 , of the 253 shots taken over 4 days 6 have similar issues of banding ...all the others are clean and look great all shot with 90mm f2.8 at ISO160 ... As i'm finding my way with the camera i'd kind of decided it must be 'operator error' in some way, however after reading the above any further thoughts would be appreciated Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/150130-leica-m9-problem-with-stripes-or-banding-across-my-images-please-help/?do=findComment&comment=1658356'>More sharing options...
sandymc Posted April 28, 2011 Share #35 Posted April 28, 2011 Hi all, find attached a picture i took last weekend taken in compressed & jpeg, other similar issue ones taken uncompressed DNG all with my M9 , of the 253 shots taken over 4 days 6 have similar issues of banding ...all the others are clean and look great all shot with 90mm f2.8 at ISO160 ... As i'm finding my way with the camera i'd kind of decided it must be 'operator error' in some way, however after reading the above any further thoughts would be appreciated First guess would be a bad SD card, assuming all were taken using the same card Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanny Swanny Posted April 28, 2011 Share #36 Posted April 28, 2011 Your right they were all taken with the same card ...a 'Lexar Professional sdhc 8gb 133x speed' .. So if your right i need not worry about the M9 but rather watch the card & try different ones thanks Oh any comments from others appreciated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 28, 2011 Share #37 Posted April 28, 2011 I think Sandy's right. There have been several similar examples on the forum, and all have turned out to be the card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 28, 2011 Share #38 Posted April 28, 2011 ...The advice to try other RAW convertors is good but I think it will only take you so far. I see the banding clearly using Adobe Camera RAW, even without pushing the files.... I won't tell you what i think of ACR, all i can say is i don't get significant banding with my old C1 v4, even when pushing the files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 29, 2011 Share #39 Posted April 29, 2011 Correction: bit of banding when pushing. Not huge but more so than with the M8 at 160 iso. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted April 29, 2011 Share #40 Posted April 29, 2011 I won't tell you what i think of ACR, all i can say is i don't get significant banding with my old C1 v4, even when pushing the files. I thought the OP was already using C1? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.