pico Posted April 8, 2011 Share #21 Posted April 8, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) And below is a subsequent frame as the "stagger" started to rise and diminish. The bottom is now clear. The bottom on that one is not clear. Look to the lower left third. See the little swirling bokeh area right-bottom of the tree? It is subtle, but it is there. I'm wondering if one of your aperture blades is not closing consistently. See it here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 Hi pico, Take a look here M6 Classic "staggering" image. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gyoung Posted April 8, 2011 Share #22 Posted April 8, 2011 How about a drop of moisture on the front element/filter causing a refracted double image? Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buranca Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share #23 Posted April 9, 2011 SOLVED SOLVED SOLVED!!! The folks leaning towards (transport) -the take up spool and some degree of disengagement were on the track. I tested and retested the body wide open from the back, bottom, and front. I could not cause it do anything wrong in any configuration. Timing was spot on, shuttering perfect, no stuttering, drag or bounce... absolutely nothing! So, I grabbed my trusty old test roll of dead film that has been through a body or three, and left the plate off and back open. Watching carefully... after a few problem free frames, I noticed that the advance lever seemed "off." It felt as though it traveled a bit beyond its designed end travel w/ a slight bit of pressure. When I fired the shutter... BINGO! ...the film, spool, and drive sprockets leapt back ~1-2mm! I advanced again, and the same sort of over-travel was felt in the lever and BINGO! ...the film jumped again! At this point I knew I was onto something! I rolled and re-rolled the film though the body numerous times. It seems that once the take-up spool has enough film rolled up to cause some good tension -the lever can, if pushed too firmly, move an extra ~3mm. Every time I intentionally pushed it this little extra bit -the film leapt back. I removed the roll and tried again -nothing. This only happens with film after about 1/2 the roll is taken up and then as the cartridge is almost empty -it goes away again, just as the test data seemed to indicate. By practicing the feel of the lever, I was able to go through the roll limitlessly w/o ever over-extending the lever and the body fired flawlessly every time. I am confident that I will shoot the next roll w/o any issues as I can now do it w/ my eyes closed. In fact, the entire experience and evening testing was so much fun. I really got a much better feel for the camera by spending such concentrated time with it. I am so delighted w/ the camera that I will look into a CLA w/ the intent of keeping the body. Hopefully, the seller may relieve me a bit to take care of it as I'd really like to hang onto it -I certainly have wanted one for a long time! I will try to get roll #3 through tomorrow. In the meantime, thanks again to everyone for all of their input. I look forward to along and happy life w/ the M6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 9, 2011 Share #24 Posted April 9, 2011 Most excellent work, Jeff! You have added to the literature of diagnosing strage issuses. There should be a special FAQ or section for problems and diagnostics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted April 10, 2011 Share #25 Posted April 10, 2011 Most excellent work, Jeff! You have added to the literature of diagnosing strage issuses. There should be a special FAQ or section for problems and diagnostics. This would be extremely helpful! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lincoln_m Posted April 10, 2011 Share #26 Posted April 10, 2011 That is very interesting. I was puzzled by this as I went to sleep last night. I would have bet on it being an issue with the shutter curtain bouncing up and down as it travels across ( or left right as it travels up or down in portrait mode ) causing vibration on the first path of the frame but settling in as it worked across. So it sounds as though the wind-on mechanism is loose giving too much slack in the film after wind on. But I also bet that the back of the camera behind the pressure plate is also loose so the back can travel 0.5->1.0 mm when you push it with your thumb at the ISO setting dial. The pressure plate should be keeping the film flat and not allowing it to move back and forth . When you send it in for CLA send these pics and ask them to check the whole transport mechanism and the pressure plate, but they should also check the shutter and everything else too in a full service. The rubber shutter edges can get mucky which leaves stripes on your images when using fast shutter speeds because the 0.5mm muck is a big part of the 2mm gap at 1/1000th. That is what happened to my 8 year old M6TTL, but a minor service sorted that out. Good luck, Lincoln Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 10, 2011 Share #27 Posted April 10, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) SOLVED SOLVED SOLVED!!! Excellent detective work, Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 10, 2011 Share #28 Posted April 10, 2011 Wow, I entered just now.. but this was really a strange issue very cleverly targeted / diagnosed ... luckily,a M6 can be CLA'ed perfectly by a good lab... clearly there is something strange in the advance mechanics... I wonder (vaguely... based on the appearance at certain frame #s) if it could be someway related to the coupling to the frame counter.... let us know what the lab tells you about... Given that you made so in-deep testing... I have a curios... have you tried to advance the film in "additive" mode, i.e., with 2-3 "short" strokes ? I used to operate a lot this way with my film Ms (not M6... the "youngest" was a M4...) ... I wonder if the issue does emerge working this way... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buranca Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share #29 Posted April 11, 2011 Hi folks, Sorry for the delay in responding -was busy shooting film (and a wee bit of digital)! Subsequent test roll proved to run fine, but I noticed the slightest bit of stagger in one frame. @lincoln_m: Testing play (movement) in the back plate.. there is movement as you described possibly accounting for the sole staggered frame. @luigi bertelotti: Yes, I tried multiple stroke advancement during the testing in the hopes that it might work. No, same result. I would be curious to try a Leicavit or M drive -but have neither. FAQ: I agree, in the other forum I frequent we tend to see similar questions arise all of the time. While some effort has been put into establishing a comprehensive FAQ -odd things like I have experienced here (and are hard to explain) do come up! From my OP: "It is the one of the oddest things I have ever seen -I sure hope this is unique enough to warrant a thread and not something obvious!" To the mods/admins -please feel free to extract/edit whatever you wish to add to a potential FAQ. I would also be happy (when I have time) to compile the entire event into a single summary post if that would help. So, where do I stand today? I contacted the seller and they graciously offered a full refund for the body or a CLA by DAG. I elected to go with the DAG CLA and will be sending it off shortly. I was so pleased that I suggested they start a search for a possible M8/M8U/M8.2 and perhaps a 35 CRON for me as I sell off some medium format kit. These are the sort of relationships we all strive for, but so rarely find. It was a delight to have and to hold for a few short days. I will miss it, but I know that it will be returned to me in as new condition. In the meantime, the IIIF has some new lenses to try! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 11, 2011 Share #30 Posted April 11, 2011 I was right! Shutter bounce was less likely due to the pretty even exposure so I could only think that the film was being pulled somehow to create the double exposure. Glad you found the problem and it's best to get the camera CLA'd, it will be 100% fine then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted April 11, 2011 Share #31 Posted April 11, 2011 So, where do I stand today? I contacted the seller and they graciously offered a full refund for the body or a CLA by DAG. I elected to go with the DAG CLA and will be sending it off shortly. I was so pleased that I suggested they start a search for a possible M8/M8U/M8.2 and perhaps a 35 CRON for me as I sell off some medium format kit. These are the sort of relationships we all strive for, but so rarely find. Glad you found the problem and to hear the seller does the right thing. You will not be disappointed with DAG's service. His turn around time may test your patience, but it is worth it in the end. As you are sending the camera in for a CLA is suggest you ask DAG to upgrade the optics in the finder it makes the M6 classic so much more useable. I enjoy mine a lot more after Don upgraded my M6. I especially recommend this if you are serious about getting an M8. You'll be comparing the two and the std M6 finder with its flare problems are no fun to use next to an M8. Cheers, Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buranca Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share #32 Posted April 12, 2011 Following up... @earley: Yes, you were first on deck, and a nice followup by pgk! From my OP: 2.) Though the camera was properly loaded (in my novice M6 opinion) it appears as though there was some sort of issue possibly with the transport. The body is now in route to DAG. Per cbretteville, I placed an inquiry in the accompanying cover letter to DAG (along w/ a summation of this thread) regarding a potential MP upgrade to the finder as well as any other suggestions while he has the body. Any of this, of course, would be beyond the scope of the seller's agreement to cover the CLA and I will be responsible for any additional charges. I think it would be poor economy to NOT have this done at the same time. I am interested in discussing the MP upgrade, magnifiers, and diopter corrections further -so I will do a site search and either tag onto an existing thread or start a new one so as to not steer this thread too far off-topic. Unless you all don't mind continuing right here? I am a "Neuer Benutzer" after all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buranca Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share #33 Posted June 21, 2011 All, DAG is about ready to ship the M6 back -I hope to have it in time for the weekend. From an email: "I finally found & repaired the film takeup problem due to defective parts in the camera that lock the film advance when the camera is completely wound." So, the fault was found and repaired. I also took the opportunity for a complete CLA as well as having the MP optics upgrade done. There was really no reason NOT to do this as the camera was already on the bench. I will report back as soon as I have some film through it! Thanks again, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 21, 2011 Share #34 Posted June 21, 2011 Jeff, I would be very interested about the involved cost for the MP finder upgrade and potential CLA. I have a beautiful M6 classic here, which get's little use, since I have gotten a MP. A finder upgrade would be desirable for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buranca Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share #35 Posted June 28, 2011 All, I finally had a chance to get a roll through. All appears fine without any signs of the stagger. The camera feels and looks great -just as if I had bought it 20 years ago. The MP upgrade is money well spent -it has made a dramatic difference, though still not perfect when the sun is in the "wrong" position. @menos: I wouldn't wish to quote any of DAG's pricing directly as though the same camera, they may well require different levels of work. Don will slide the costs around relative to the actual work being performed. I would set aside a few hundred dollars and have ANY and ALL work performed at the same time. I am sure Don would be happy to provide you a quote to match what your intentions are with the camera. On that note, I would like to take a moment and thank all of the forum members who contributed. Your experiences and thoughts are much appreciated. I would also like to thank Kamerahaus for standing behind the camera. I look forward to doing more business with them. Last but not least, a special thanks to Don for his patience and craftsmanship! The camera is absolutely magnificent! Below is a shot of the same scene presented earlier -different time of year and day. I wonder if Don can "fix" me, as there is no longer any apparent issues with the camera! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/148535-m6-classic-staggering-image/?do=findComment&comment=1717538'>More sharing options...
too old to care Posted June 28, 2011 Share #36 Posted June 28, 2011 Jeff, that is a nice shot. Glad your camera is ok and operating as new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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