Ted W Posted March 24, 2011 Share #1 Posted March 24, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does anybody agree there is a gap in the product line between the S2 and the Ms? Now that a proper SLR form-factor has been created with the S2, is there not a market for a less-expensive digital SLR that has an R mount, definitely focus comfirmation, is slightly smaller, and around low 20-something MP? A knockdown S2 to compete with 5D mkII and D3x, for those of us who don't have $20K but might scrape together six or seven. Autofocus R lenses to follow, perhaps, but existing Rs will work. It's not happening, but I wonder if this is because a) Leica has determined there is no market for it, or Leica, as a small-ish company, does not have the capital and production capacity to produce such a camera, or produce it in the quantity necessary to dent Canon/Nikon market share. Maybe the margin takes care of that, though... I don't know. Between the Ms, the new digital R, the S2, and the various compacts, Leica really would have a complete lineup of offerings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Hi Ted W, Take a look here R...10, I guess they would call it. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted March 24, 2011 Share #2 Posted March 24, 2011 I'd have suggested you use the search function, but it doesn't respond well to single letters (e.g. "R"). But this has been discussed here at unbelievable length since Leica announced the end of the R line. The really simple explanation is: if you want an SLR built the Leica Way: no high-volume robot assembly lines, no SE Asian labor, the price is going to be about the same as the S2. A smaller sensor might reduce costs and thus the price $5K at most - but probably not even that. I doubt the S2 sensors cost Leica $5K each. But the complexities of building AF systems and the basic mechanics of an SLR (moving mirror, aperture actuator, prism, ttl meter, lens mounts, assembly and alignment costs) are going to cost about X, whether the camera has a 24 x 36 sensor or a 30 x 45 sensor. And "X" will be in the 5 figures if Leica handbuilds it. Put another way, an M9 with NO SLR mechanisms already costs $7K. Add the costs of including all the SLR gear (plus AF) on top of an M9's basis costs - and you are back in the teens. Leica determined that there was no cost/price structure - outside the S2 model - that would make them a profit. A profitable price would not have sufficient sales; a price where the camera would sell, would lose money. As one Leica exec put it, "We can't swim with the sharks (Nikon/Canon) any more." Put more coldly, "those of us who don't have $20K" for an SLR are no longer a market Leica sees as profitable. Rumor has it that by eliminating the complexities of a true reflex SLR, and adopting electronic eye-level viewing as with the Panasonic G1/GH1/GH2, Leica may develop something in 2-3 years that can be used with legacy R lenses. A few very vague references about this from Leica (see links below). Some discussions of that idea and what little Leica has said on that market area: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/136317-photokina-your-questions-leica.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/143592-no-r-solution-photokina.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/161537-r-solution-more-details.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/143461-no-dslr-solution-below-s2-line.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 24, 2011 Share #3 Posted March 24, 2011 Leica used Minolta bodies for R3 to R7 cameras. Why not such a cooperation for the R10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted W Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted March 24, 2011 Leica used Minolta bodies for R3 to R7 cameras. Why not such a cooperation for the R10? Ideally it would be based on the S2 platform, yes? But subcontracting the work would seem logical (Cosina builds Zeiss lens designs, no one complains about their optical quality), though the first responder above did caveat with "built the Leica Way." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 24, 2011 Share #5 Posted March 24, 2011 After the CL finally the CR or even the CS? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 24, 2011 Share #6 Posted March 24, 2011 Ideally it would be based on the S2 platform, yes?... Too expensive i'm afraid. See what Adan wrote above. Why not coordinate efforts with ...... (choose the right name, Samsung/Pentax for instance) to build a FF camera? We just need a digital back, a good VF and an R mount after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 24, 2011 Share #7 Posted March 24, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ultimately, Leica simply does not want to be in that area of the business. It isn't worth anything to them. Flip the question around. From Leica's perspective (not R owners' perspective) what IS in it for them? They have no more R stock to sell. They have full order books for the next two years with the systems they are already producing*. S2s may be expensive, but so long as Guangzhou millionaires, and the Russian President, and some pros, are willing to snap them up, why put any effort or money into a cheaper version? They think the classic mirror/prism SLR paradigm is going to disappear in the face of EVF "mirrorless" cameras anyway, "working up from the bottom" thus making a low-end Sx more at risk than the S2 itself. (see Stephan Daniel video interview, approx 3:10 minutes in: ) *A dealer told me today it would take TWO YEARS to get a 50mm f/1.4 ASPH lens - One year to get one if they had a prepaid order in hand. And Leica is supposed to expend any amount of staff time or money setting up a partnership to build classic SLRs? I guess what I notice is that people who think Leica has a "hole" in their lineup are always people who want to buy something right in that "hole". No one ever says "I don't want a $7K Leica SLR - but they should build one." From Leica's point of view, though, there is no hole. They have a nice profitable complete line, and they are working at well over full capacity keeping that line covered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Verrips Posted March 24, 2011 Share #8 Posted March 24, 2011 I don't like autofocus....... For high end cameras hight Leica has the right focus on the market. They don't act like Canon & Nikon etc. but focus on nichemarket. There is & will allways be a market for the products Leica stands for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 24, 2011 Share #9 Posted March 24, 2011 Does anybody agree there is a gap in the product line between the S2 and the Ms? Now that a proper SLR form-factor has been created with the S2, is there not a market for a less-expensive digital SLR that has an R mount, definitely focus comfirmation, is slightly smaller, and around low 20-something MP? No and no. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted March 24, 2011 Share #10 Posted March 24, 2011 The whole SLR thing with the moving mirror and all that stuff is coming to an end. It is already obsolete. Soon, very soon, it will all become electronic. This is when the elusive R10 equivalent will become a reality. This is my own opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 24, 2011 Share #11 Posted March 24, 2011 The whole SLR thing with the moving mirror and all that stuff is coming to an end. It is already obsolete... So the S2 is obsolete do you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 24, 2011 Share #12 Posted March 24, 2011 It's not happening, but I wonder if this is because a) Leica has determined there is no market for it, or Leica, as a small-ish company, does not have the capital and production capacity to produce such a camera, or produce it in the quantity necessary to dent Canon/Nikon market share. Stop wondering. You've answered your own question. Just substitute "and" for "or " twice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 24, 2011 Share #13 Posted March 24, 2011 Leica used Minolta bodies for R3 to R7 cameras. Why not such a cooperation for the R10? Because no one would make any money out of it? And Leica haven't got the capacity to make lenses for it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 24, 2011 Share #14 Posted March 24, 2011 So the S2 is obsolete do you think? No. Medium format cameras have a longer way until the mirrorless paradigm comes to them. The main problem is the sensor size. MF manufacturers will need large CMOS sensors and very sophisticated electronics and software. Moreover, they would require quite large and high quality EVFs. It is an all different thing than current MF cameras and backs. It will take time. Even 24x36mm professional reflex cameras will not have competition from mirrorless cameras in a while. The problem is the same: large CMOS sensors with active operation (AF, electronic obturation) and high quality EVFs. So the S2 is in the comfort zone. The Canon and Nikon's top cameras are too, but I think they are in a 'less' comfortable zone... Maybe Canon someday presents a mirrorless 24x36 camera in the segment of the 5D Mark II and then they will start implementing improvements until the replacement is done. But that game has not started yet for them. Adan has explained it very well in a previous comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 24, 2011 Share #15 Posted March 24, 2011 ...But that game has not started yet for them... Sure the game has not starded for Pentax for instance but it is yet over for Leica, even under cooperation with Pentax or same. Curious no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 24, 2011 Share #16 Posted March 24, 2011 Does anybody agree there is a gap in the product line between the S2 and the Ms? IMHO - No. A full-frame live-view CMOS camera is on every major Asian maker's R&D design bench right now. Maybe Leica will team up with an Asian company for a full-frame EVIL camera that will use the R lenses. It will be necessary to include a Leica adapter with auto-stop-down aperture because focusing a live-view stopped down or alternately having to manually stop down after focusing wide-open is a show-stopper (even with view magnification). As-is the focusing method with M43 with foreign lenses is a huge step into the past. Big questions are 1) whether Leica wants to resume manufacturing of the R lenses! They are challenged enough making lenses for the M, and 2) whether Leica wants to get into the disruptive market stream when they have a solid sustaining business model. The Leica R almost killed the company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 24, 2011 Share #17 Posted March 24, 2011 Sure the game has not starded for Pentax for instance but it is yet over for Leica, even under cooperation with Pentax or same. Curious no? Pentax? They are thinking on how to get into this new paradigm. They have several problems: 1) how to offer something different enough in order to avoid price competition with Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and Samsung; 2) how to offer something different enough in order to avoid competition with their reflex line, or what to do with it (different responses from Sony and Olympus to this problem). The MF camera is far away from the current market of mirrorless cameras (APS-C ~1,000€ cameras with no professional grade features). Nikon and Canon have the same problems, more or less. They have not MF cameras but a dominant position in the 3,000-6,000€ camera segment with professional (high standard) features. What to do? 1 Going for the APS-C mirroless segment, already crowded, and trying to be "different" in some way? Or 2 to the middle 24x36 segment and from it reduce prices for cheaper lines and increase performance/features for higher lines later on? I think Canon will follow the second route later, and Pentax the first one soon. Rumors point Nikon will follow the first route as well (but I have no idea). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted March 24, 2011 Share #18 Posted March 24, 2011 Does anybody agree there is a gap in the product line between the S2 and the Ms? Maybe current R users might, but Leica are probably thinking about post the M9, M9-2 or M10, their M9 rate is probably still at maxium. M9s are near off the shelf, getting a Leica lens of choice not that easy, when do the dealers start offering a cash back on stock M9 bodies... M7 and MP are still selling. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted March 24, 2011 Share #19 Posted March 24, 2011 So the S2 is obsolete do you think? This shafting, or investigative lawyer mentality is starting to be irritating. Of course the whole mirror thing is starting to be an old technology, absolutely unneeded in today's cameras but still in production because the transition has to be gradual, as with every product cycle, or the customers simply won't follow. It's as it is and that's how it goes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 24, 2011 Share #20 Posted March 24, 2011 This shafting, or investigative lawyer mentality is starting to be irritating... I beg your pardon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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