Summicron M 2/90mm II 1963 ?

[telewatt]

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Thanks Luigi! ....

 

Stefan "str" had done the first part of the compilation and I went for some hours in my "Leitz room"...

 

regards,

Jan

Edited January 9, 2011 by telewatt

[jc_braconi]

The same 2 screws are present also in the Summarex 85... and they are exactly 180° opposed to the tripod mount (fitted with two other big screws), which is present on both lenses (not visible in the brochure - opposed)... I think that they made a sort of collar to fit this accessory, securing it with 2+2 screws, so keeping the possibility to modify easily the lens, i.e. without the tripod mount, if and when it would have been considered not a needed feature (as effectively was, some years later). Just a speculation... but the relation with the tripod mount imho has a sense.

There are not the same screws and not at the same distance from each other

they are retaining the guide for the plunger that comes in interaction with the camera range finder.

[telewatt]

..first ad in "Leica Fotografie" No. 2/59

 

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Regards,

Jan

[luigi bertolotti]

There are not the same screws and not at the same distance from each other

they are retaining the guide for the plunger that comes in interaction with the camera range finder.

 

Uhm uhm... you force me to work with caliper... ... it seems to me that the guide you mention is positioned too inside the mount to be retained by those screws... but their distance matches the guide's width... you're probably right... the guide could indeed be shaped so that the screws can "reach" it.

[telewatt]

I 1, a

SOOZI und SOOOZI-M, reversible Hood, first Version/Design

1.119.001 - 1.119.200 1953 (delivered 1967)“Lager Vol.II p.72)

1.477.001 - 1.477.100 1957

1.580.001 - 1.581.000 1958

fixed Head / only chrome

 

(sale from 1957, leaflet „Leitz Inc. New York, August 57“

In Germany 1958, first in „LEICA FOTOGRAFIE 2/58“ and „Leitz-Katalog 15.August 1958)

 

 

I, 1, b

SEEOF und SEEOF-M, later SEEOM, built in Hood, first different Version/Design

INVOO = codeword for pre-set diaphragm SEEOF/SEOOF-M (to spezial order)

1.651.001 - 1.819.000 1959 to 1960

smallest aperture 16 (15 Blades)

chrome, (black, only to spezial order)

(leaflet „Liste 11-39“ date IX/58)

 

I can still see a problem....

why do I have a Promo leaflet "Liste 11-39" dated IX/58 with a SEEOF(-M) on it?...painting only?...before they built one ?..

 

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Ernst Leitz (Canada) LTD. Midland/Ontario "Liste 11-39" Printed in Germany IX/58/DLX/DM/SD

 

regards,

Jan

Edited January 10, 2011 by telewatt

[jc_braconi]

Uhm uhm... you force me to work with caliper... ..." .

Ed anche il tuo raggionamento

 

Luigi, If you chek an

Elmarit 90, there are 2 screws in ring with the lens tube for holding it,

Hektor or Elmar 135, 3 screws in line for this purpose

Summarex and Summicron have the same kind of this.

[luigi bertolotti]

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Ed anche il tuo raggionamento

 

Luigi, If you chek an

Elmarit 90, there are 2 screws in ring with the lens tube for holding it,

Hektor or Elmar 135, 3 screws in line for this purpose

Summarex and Summicron have the same kind of this.

 

Lesson for 2011... "always INSPECT before speculate in public"

[telewatt]

we have new informations!...we found on of the 400 lenses 1977 with the E48, listed bevor as a " II type lens" but it is a "Typ I, 2" lens ....

 

I 1, a

SOOZI und SOOOZI-M, reversible Hood, first Version/Design

1.119.001 - 1.119.200 1953 (delivered 1967)“Lager Vol.II p.72)

1.477.001 - 1.477.100 1957

1.580.001 - 1.581.000 1958

fixed Head / only chrome

 

(sale from 1957, leaflet „Leitz Inc. New York, August 57“

In Germany 1958, first in „LEICA FOTOGRAFIE 2/58“ and „Leitz-Katalog 15.August 1958)

 

 

I, 1, b

SEEOF und SEEOF-M, later SEEOM, built in Hood, first different Version/Design

INVOO = codeword for pre-set diaphragm SEEOF/SEOOF-M (to spezial order)

1.651.001 - 1.819.000 1959 to 1960

smallest aperture 16 (15 Blades)

chrome, (black, only to spezial order)

(leaflet „Liste 11-39“ date IX/58)

 

I, 2

11123 built in Hood, second Version/Design

11133 Head only

11132 Head only with pre-set diaphragm (to spezial order)

1.983.001 - 2792.700 1963 to 1976

2.813.401 - 2.813.800 1977

smallest aperture 22 (12 Blades)

 

II

11136 (black)

11137 (chrome) new third Version/Design

2.813.801 - 3.721.400 1977 to 1995

 

2.813.801 - 3.177.200 E49 Filter

later E55

 

sale from 1980 „Lager“, „Photokina 80“ und „Leica Fotografie 7/80“

 

 

 

Informations are from „Lager“ „Thiele“ „Leitz leaflets“ „Leitz General Catalogues“ „Leica Fotografie“ „Viewfinder“ and some promos in old Magazines....

 

If you think there is something wrong, tell me please...

 

regards,

Jan

[telewatt]

two lenses, one from 1960 (left) and 1959 (right)...

You can see the little difference

 

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Summicron 2/90mm 1960 and 1959

 

Grüße,

Jan

[jc_braconi]

Jan,

This one on the right is from 1960 looks that it shares half pieces from 1959 and some from 1960 if I refer to your pictures.

Is the one from 1959 a screw mount (like mine,which is also a INVOO) converted to M has a little index on the M mount to help aligning during the glue in ?

Does it has also Canada engraved on the tripod foot ?

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Edited January 14, 2011 by jc_braconi

[telewatt]

yes jc, the 1959 version has "Canada" on the tripod foot and both lenses are with the little index for the converter to M....

 

regards,

Jan

[lecycliste]

I have a 90/2 Summicron v II from 1959 - Puts is wrong about production dates. My 90/2 is also a LTM lens, something else ignored or said to be impossible by some experts. The v II was produced until at least 1979. The 90/2 v III appeared in 1980.

Edited May 9, 2018 by lecycliste

[luigi bertolotti]

I have a 90/2 Summicron v II from 1959 - Puts is wrong about production dates. My 90/2 is also a LTM lens, something else ignored or said to be impossible by some experts. The v II was produced until at least 1979. The 90/2 v III appeared in 1980.

Right… but here is a Summicron 90 v III...

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… with a number of 1977 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Right… but here is a Summicron 90 v III...

Summicron90III.jpg

 

… with a number of 1977 

Summicron90III_sn.jpg

 

Hello Luigi,

 

The Wiki at the top of this page says the lens in the photo is from 1977.

 

We all know that Lens & Camera Production Dates are subject to Exceptions both outside of & within the given parameters.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited May 11, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[alan mcfall]

My early lenses from your catagory 1.1b.

 

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Black paint, serial 1652831, M mount, no "Canada" on black tripod socket.

Chrome, serial 1742218, M adapter and red dot, has "Canada" on tripod socket,  Pre-set version.

 

 

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Alan,

 

Do you by any chance have a black preset 90mm, F2 Summicron That we might see a photo of?

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited June 1, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[alan mcfall]

I do not have a black paint 90 Summicron f/16 with the pre-set feature, chrome yes, but not black.  It is my knowledge that black paint was a special option and pre-set diaphragm was also a special option.  Likely very unique to have both options on one lens.

Lager shows a black pre-set lens in short mount, Serial 1680770 (1959) in his latest Leica Lens book, p 204. I do not recall ever seeing a black pre-set early 90 in normal camera mount, maybe someone else has. Thanks

[Michael Geschlecht]

we have new informations!...we found on of the 400 lenses 1977 with the E48, listed bevor as a " II type lens" but it is a "Typ I, 2" lens ....

 

I 1, a

SOOZI und SOOOZI-M, reversible Hood, first Version/Design

1.119.001 - 1.119.200 1953 (delivered 1967)“Lager Vol.II p.72)

1.477.001 - 1.477.100 1957

1.580.001 - 1.581.000 1958

fixed Head / only chrome

 

(sale from 1957, leaflet „Leitz Inc. New York, August 57“

In Germany 1958, first in „LEICA FOTOGRAFIE 2/58“ and „Leitz-Katalog 15.August 1958)

 

 

I, 1, b

SEEOF und SEEOF-M, later SEEOM, built in Hood, first different Version/Design

INVOO = codeword for pre-set diaphragm SEEOF/SEOOF-M (to spezial order)

1.651.001 - 1.819.000 1959 to 1960

smallest aperture 16 (15 Blades)

chrome, (black, only to spezial order)

(leaflet „Liste 11-39“ date IX/58)

 

I, 2

11123 built in Hood, second Version/Design

11133 Head only

11132 Head only with pre-set diaphragm (to spezial order)

1.983.001 - 2792.700 1963 to 1976

2.813.401 - 2.813.800 1977

smallest aperture 22 (12 Blades)

 

II

11136 (black)

11137 (chrome) new third Version/Design

2.813.801 - 3.721.400 1977 to 1995

 

2.813.801 - 3.177.200 E49 Filter

later E55

 

sale from 1980 „Lager“, „Photokina 80“ und „Leica Fotografie 7/80“

 

 

 

Informations are from „Lager“ „Thiele“ „Leitz leaflets“ „Leitz General Catalogues“ „Leica Fotografie“ „Viewfinder“ and some promos in old Magazines....

 

If you think there is something wrong, tell me please...

 

regards,

Jan

 

Hello Jan,

 

Here is some information to add to your very fine list:

 

If we consider the first version of the lens which you have designated I,1,a & I,1,b as separate. Including 1680770 in Alan's Post # 37 just above:

 

From the Wiki at the top of this page, in terms of the lenses that you have designated as I,2 - It would appear that the lens heads alone, as well as the lens heads in short mounts provided separately, whether black or chrome, whether pre-set apertures or not, are all in the batch numbers that begin with 1740001 and end with 1743500. Which is a batch number set from 1960.

 

As with the 800mm, F6.3 Telyt-S, this is not to say that all of the batch numbers assigned were utilized. Or to say in which year that the lenses using those serial numbers were actually manufactured.

 

It would be interesting to see if there are any pre-set lenses for this series of 90mm, F2, Summicrons that anyone has seen that have serial numbers that fall outside of these numbers. As an example, Alan's very nice lens in his Post # 35 just above is 1742218.

 

Also, to add to your designations within the Version I,2 lenses:

 

11124 is the lens head in short mount.

 

11126 is the lens head in short mount, pre-set.

 

14019 is the bayonet mount for short mount lenses.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited June 2, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[UliWer]

May I try to rekindle some interest for this seven years old thread?

There was consent about numbers 1,651,001 - 1,819,000, being produced in 1959 to 1960 with f/16 as smallest aperture and f/22 being only introduced  later in 1963 with the series starting with no. 1,983,001. In telewatt's listing of he variants in #28 he made a distinction between group "I.1.b" for the former serious from 1959/60 and I.2 for the later one starting in 1963. it was also assumed that there  was an optical redesign, marked by the changement from f 16 to f 22 and introduced in 1963. 

Recently I got hold of a 90mm Summicron which does not fit into this order:

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According to its serial number 1,818,889 it should belong to group "I.1.b" from 1960, but it obviously has f/22. So either the previous assumption that f/22 was only introduced later in 1963 is wrong and it was already introduced in 1960 or my example - notwithstanding its earlier serial number - was produced later and  belongs to the goup "I.II" which starts in 1963. Perhaps they had reserved the numbers  for the group starting with 1,817.001 up to 1,819.000, but didn't produce all of them, and filled up the next series in 1963 with some "old" numbers?

 

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[UliWer]

So out of curiosity I started to search what I could find in the web on ebay and some results from auction sites. I found another example with 1,818,xxx and f/22, but unfortunately the ebay seller from Hongkong left out the last three digits. Though it is clear hat my example is no "loner". There were some other findings: 

• examples with 1,817,xxx, which belong to the same series as my example have f/16; i also found one with 1,818,149 with f/16 (Westlicht Auction Nov. 2005)
• there seems to be an odd group of "hybrid" examples in the midrange of the 1,818.xxx series: 1818453 - Westlicht May 2003; 1818548 Ebay (seller from  Italy); 1818734, Westlicht Nov. 2007 all have a lens with f/16, but on the shaft you find an engraving for f/22 at the DOF-scale. Same for another example with 1,818xxx from the aforementioned seller from Hongkong with left out last digits, and one example mentioned by "Orient XI" here, who unfortunately leaves out the three last digits as well:  

Finding during a quick web search five examples  with this oddity of different f-stops markings for the lens and on the shaft lets me agree with Orient XI that there was a whole group with this variation. The other assumption, that someone had the lenshead from the short version of the Summicron for the Visoflex first  and later bought a shaft with different engravings might be valiant if there was only one or another example of this oddity; though with at least three numbers rather closely together in the 1,818,xxx-series, I do not really believe that those examples were accidentially fit together. It would be interesting to know the full number of Orient XI's example - I am rather sure it fits somewhere in this "midrange" series of numbers 1,818,xxx. Though I must add that I also found one example 1,817,022 with the f/16 (lens) and f/22(shaft) combination (Rahn Auction Feb. 2016), which does not fit the "midrange" theory". Though the lens head for this example had preset f-stops and it seems as if this version was only or mostly sold with short built for Visoflex, so the theory of the later bought shaft may be true for this single example.

There is stil some uncertainty about the assumption of a "midrange" group with the "hybrid" markings  and I may be falsified. But anyway it would be interesting to learn about more examples with this oddity - and expecially if their serial numners fit the theory or not.