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Summicron M 2/90mm II 1963 ?


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I'm looking for information on modifying the Summicron M 90mm to the second (optical) version.

 

"Puts" says 1963.....(time of built the lens or selling time ?)

"James L. Lager" speaks about focusing mount was redesigned at Nr. 1651001, same formula until 1979....

in the Internet you can find Nr. 1651001 as the beginning of the second (optical) version...

 

Version I (circa 1953-62; serial numbers 1,459,000 - 1,650,000): Introduced in 1953 with the original DS M3 the original 90mm f2.0 Summicron the first optical formulation was produced until 1957 and sold by Leica as late as 1962. With 6 elements in five groups it appears very similar in design to and is a long focus recalculation of contemporaneous shorter focal length Summicrons.

 

Version II (circa 1963-80; serial numbers 1,651,000 - 3,013,000): This version is less than universally recognized; Dennis Laney, in his fine work "Leica Collectors Guide", lumps it together with the first version. Though the optical formulation appears very similar under casual observation; both versions are nearly symmetrical double Gaussian types with rearward of center pair cemented. Both are 6 elements in 5 groups; both versions are very similar in weight; but there are significant beneficial differences to the Midland Canada optimization of the original Wetzlar formulation. The new formulation employs new glass compositions, different lens element spacings, subtly altered glass/air interface curvatures and though it appears to be substantially the same lens, it performs very differently.

 

According to Erwin Puts: "...clear definition of coarse detail enhances the overall visual performance, compared to its predecessor. The lens is still sensitive to flare but less so. Finer detail is rendered with fuzzy edges, and gives the overall image a softer look...." ideal for a portrait lens.

 

Version III Summicron M (circa 1980- serial numbers 2,800,000 - 3,750,000): The third design is a complete departure. It bears more resemblance to the vintage 1970 Leica 90mm "R" Summicron and it is more of a telephoto in design than a long focus as were the previous designs. It is composed of a 3 group 4 element front set and a single element at the rear.

(Camera repair dot com)

 

this is the production until 1964/65 I have found....

 

1953 1119001 - 1119200 Summicron 2,0 90 200 Stück (pieces)

1957 1477001 - 1477100 Summicron 2,0 90 100 Stück

 

1958 1580001 - 1581000 Summicron 2,0 90 1000 Stück

 

1959 1651001 - 1652000 Summicron 2,0 90 1000 Stück

1959 1652451 - 1653450 Summicron 2,0 90 1000 Stück

1959 1680001 - 1682000 Summicron 2,0 90 2000 Stück

1960 1740001 - 1743500 Summicron 2,0 90 3500 Stück

1960 1743501 - 1746500 Summicron 2,0 90 3000 Stück

1960 1817001 - 1819000 Summicron 2,0 90 2000 Stück

1963 1983001 - 1983900 Summicron 2,0 90 900 Stück

1964 2025001 - 2026000 Summicron 2,0 90 1000 Stück

1964 2068501 - 2069500 Summicron 2,0 90 1000 Stück

1965 2150551 - 2151550 Summicron 2,0 90 1000 Stück

 

Thanks for input...

 

Jan

Edited by telewatt
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You cannot "modify" a lens to a different optical version. It would be tantamount to buiding a new lens from scratch.

 

Only the most superficial modification of the mount would be possible, because it's the mount that holds the optics. Get yourself a specimen of the version you desire – that's the only rational action.

 

The old man

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You cannot "modify" a lens to a different optical version. It would be tantamount to buiding a new lens from scratch.

 

Only the most superficial modification of the mount would be possible, because it's the mount that holds the optics. ...

 

Well, wasn't the second version of the 1.4/50 a "modified" version of the first one? New glass, or some slight differences for the lenses might lead to improvements without normal users being able to notice them - if they don't see the results side by side.

Edited by UliWer
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You cannot "modify" a lens to a different optical version. It would be tantamount to buiding a new lens from scratch.

 

Only the most superficial modification of the mount would be possible, because it's the mount that holds the optics. Get yourself a specimen of the version you desire – that's the only rational action.

 

The old man

 

I suspect that telewatt is looking for more information on the details of exactly when or how the 'modification' was done by Leitz, rather than actually trying to alter a lens . . .

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I suspect that telewatt is looking for more information on the details of exactly when or how the 'modification' was done by Leitz, rather than actually trying to alter a lens . . .

 

 

regards,

Jan

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Jan

in the period 1957 - 1979 that is considered as the production years of the Summicron 1:2/90 version I, inside of them there are two sub versions a & b, it is recognized as the end of 1962 as the beginning of the second sub versions, BUT I have no documents of this only "barber shop" news.

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The first "sub-version" – it should be regarded as a full version! – was coded SOOZI/SOOZI-M and production started in 1957. This was the version with the separate hood. It was quite soft wide open, and performance fell of pretty radically at close distances.

 

It seems that this version was produced only until 1959. The new version with the collapsible hood, SEEOF/SEEOF-M, later SEEOM, from # 1651001, used the same general double-Gauss layout as its predecessor, but the weaknesses had been adressed with good success. But note that the lens had been completely re-computed under the direction of Walter Mandler. All the elements were subtly different, and so of course were the retaining elements that held them in the mount. So it was in effect a completely new lens.

 

The decisions to name "versions" or not do often seem quite arbitrary, and contradictory. The SOOZI and the SEEOF are regarded as the same version, though they are both optically and mechanically different, while both a "v.2" and a "v.3" are recognised in the 35mm Summicron, even though performance is identical, the only differences being in the mount style.

 

It should be noted that lenses are often re-computed for technical versions (easier assembly, a glass becoming unavailable) without any fanfare or name change. Here, the reasoning is that if there is no change in performance, there is no new version. And that is a sensible attitude.

 

The old man from the Age of the Meniscus Lens

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Interesting for me is, in Germany there was no promotion on the first SOOZI Summicron 9cm....

the first talk about it are only some words in the German "Leica Fotografie" under the column "short News" (SOOZI) 2/58

....at the "Photokina" 1958 no words about a new Summicron 90mm lens! and in the catalog you can find it from 15. August 1958 (Thanks Stefan!) as SOOZI and SOOZI-M...

And my first German flyer is dated IX/58 but with the new SEOOF Summicron ....

 

In "Leica Fotografie" 2/1959 you can find a lot of promotion and a Story about the SEOOF Summicron....and ready to buy, only the Elmarit 2,8/90mm has a mark "not until May/June".

 

what was the reason not to talk much about the SOOZI in Germany?

 

Regards,

Jan

Edited by telewatt
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May be because they was some rivality in between Midland and Wetzlar ?

(remember the first Summicron are ELC)

 

I vaguely remember having discussed the point in the late 1970s in Wetzlar (with Mr Attila von Gyimes), after having desperately looked for early Leitz-published documents on the SOOZI. The answer was : German import taxes on Canadian products and negociations in course about same for Leitz-marked products.

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This is the information, we have now....

 

I 1, a

SOOZI und SOOOZI-M, reversible Hood, first Version/Design

1.119.001 - 1.119.200 1953 (delivered 1967)“Lager Vol.II p.72)

1.477.001 - 1.477.100 1957

1.580.001 - 1.581.000 1958

fixed Head / only chrome

 

(sale from 1957, leaflet „Leitz Inc. New York, August 57“

In Germany 1958, first in „LEICA FOTOGRAFIE 2/58“ and „Leitz-Katalog 15.August 1958)

 

 

I, 1, b

SEEOF und SEEOF-M, later SEEOM, built in Hood, first different Version/Design

INVOO = codeword for pre-set diaphragm SEEOF/SEOOF-M (to spezial order)

1.651.001 - 1.819.000 1959 to 1960

smallest aperture 16 (15 Blades)

chrome, (black, only to spezial order)

(leaflet „Liste 11-39“ date IX/58)

 

I, 2

11123 built in Hood, second Version/Design

11133 Head only

11132 Head only with pre-set diaphragm (to spezial order)

1.983.001 - 2792.700 1963 to 1976

smallest aperture 22 (12 Blades)

 

II

11136 (black)

11137 (chrome) new third Version/Design

2.813.401 - 3.721.400 1976 to 1995

 

2.813.401 - 2.813.800 E48 Filter

2.813.801 - 3.177.200 E49 Filter

later E55

 

sale from 1980 „Lager“, „Photokina 80“ und „Leica Fotografie 7/80“

 

 

 

Informations are from „Lager“ „Thiele“ „Leitz leaflets“ „Leitz General Catalogues“ „Leica Fotografie“ „Viewfinder“ and some promos in old Magazines....

 

If you think there is something wrong, tell me please...

 

regards,

Jan

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"Photography Annual 1960 Edition"

 

"...now also available in 35mm and 90mm......"

 

regards,

Jan

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I've often wondered what was the purpose of the two screws at the rear of the 90mm Summicron shown in the brochure illustration above . . . are they part of the mechanism of the lens, or were they perhaps intended as mounting points for some accessory which was never actually marketed? Not really relevant to this thread, but maybe someone knows . . .

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I've often wondered what was the purpose of the two screws at the rear of the 90mm Summicron shown in the brochure illustration above . . . are they part of the mechanism of the lens, or were they perhaps intended as mounting points for some accessory which was never actually marketed? Not really relevant to this thread, but maybe someone knows . . .

 

The same 2 screws are present also in the Summarex 85... and they are exactly 180° opposed to the tripod mount (fitted with two other big screws), which is present on both lenses (not visible in the brochure - opposed)... I think that they made a sort of collar to fit this accessory, securing it with 2+2 screws, so keeping the possibility to modify easily the lens, i.e. without the tripod mount, if and when it would have been considered not a needed feature (as effectively was, some years later). Just a speculation... but the relation with the tripod mount imho has a sense.

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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This is the information, we have now....

 

I 1, a

SOOZI und SOOOZI-M, reversible Hood, first Version/Design

1.119.001 - 1.119.200 1953 (delivered 1967)“Lager Vol.II p.72)

1.477.001 - 1.477.100 1957

1.580.001 - 1.581.000 1958

fixed Head / only chrome

 

(sale from 1957, leaflet „Leitz Inc. New York, August 57“

In Germany 1958, first in „LEICA FOTOGRAFIE 2/58“ and „Leitz-Katalog 15.August 1958)

 

 

I, 1, b

SEEOF und SEEOF-M, later SEEOM, built in Hood, first different Version/Design

INVOO = codeword for pre-set diaphragm SEEOF/SEOOF-M (to spezial order)

1.651.001 - 1.819.000 1959 to 1960

smallest aperture 16 (15 Blades)

chrome, (black, only to spezial order)

(leaflet „Liste 11-39“ date IX/58)

 

I, 2

11123 built in Hood, second Version/Design

11133 Head only

11132 Head only with pre-set diaphragm (to spezial order)

1.983.001 - 2792.700 1963 to 1976

smallest aperture 22 (12 Blades)

 

II

11136 (black)

11137 (chrome) new third Version/Design

2.813.401 - 3.721.400 1976 to 1995

 

2.813.401 - 2.813.800 E48 Filter

2.813.801 - 3.177.200 E49 Filter

later E55

 

sale from 1980 „Lager“, „Photokina 80“ und „Leica Fotografie 7/80“

 

 

 

Informations are from „Lager“ „Thiele“ „Leitz leaflets“ „Leitz General Catalogues“ „Leica Fotografie“ „Viewfinder“ and some promos in old Magazines....

 

If you think there is something wrong, tell me please...

 

regards,

Jan

 

Very good !!! It could be added that around 2.815.xxx (?) there had been the modification of the shade, so that it wouldn't anymore cover the f stops ring when retracted (I have 2.814.779 with this "defect"... I do not know exactly when the modification entered... Puts' figures on lens' batches are a bit confused in those numbers...)

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