HAAALP!! Elangkup

[doubice]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

.............I see the reference to the 135mm f4.5 Elmar shows the coupled version as having the code "EFERMKUD". Could the ...kud be a misprint?

 

Yes, it kud very vell be a misprint....

 

Best,

 

Jan

[luigi bertolotti]

DOUBLE misprint... ... I seem to remember that Elmar 13,5 was EFERN, not EFERM : in the first years Leitz struggled to give "sense" to its 5 letter codes... the "long" 9 cm Elmar was E - LANG the "short" 3,5 cm was E - KURZ, one of the "normal" cameras was... LEICA (trivial...) , but the legendary luxus-golden one was LE - LUX, the first real Tele (20 cm) was TEL - OO, and so on...; as for the 13,5 : FERN = "distant - far away"

Is funny to see their efforts even in the codes of filters (FI + 3 letters resembling the color) and other gear... I think it was hard, for their "coding department", to admit, at a certain moment, that the number of products was skyrocketing, so that one could no more hope to give a sense to that codes...

[gyoung]

I have often wondered about this code 'language', is it some form of local dialect of German, spoken only around Wetzlar?

 

Maybe we should feed some of it into an Enigma machine and see what comes out

 

Gerry

[lars_bergquist]

I have often wondered about this code 'language', is it some form of local dialect of German, spoken only around Wetzlar?

 

Maybe we should feed some of it into an Enigma machine and see what comes out

 

Gerry

In the old days orders from agents were often sent by telegraph, and the transmission was paid by the number of words or characters. It was common commercial practice between the wars to use codes of this type to save on telegraph costs.Obviously, "ELANG" was shorter and cheaper than "Neun Zentineter Elmar".

 

The old man from the Age of the Morse Code

[jaapv]

Seeing the numbers of Crons,Luxes and Rits that we find in the forum there is obviously still the need for shorthand. I wish Leica would reintroduce the codes.. Novoflex never stopped using the system.

[jc_braconi]

Seeing the numbers of Crons,Luxes and Rits that we find in the forum there is obviously still the need for shorthand. I wish Leica would reintroduce the codes.. Novoflex never stopped using the system.

They always exist using numbers.

[gyoung]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

In the old days orders from agents were often sent by telegraph, and the transmission was paid by the number of words or characters. It was common commercial practice between the wars to use codes of this type to save on telegraph costs.Obviously, "ELANG" was shorter and cheaper than "Neun Zentineter Elmar".

 

The old man from the Age of the Morse Code

 

OT, but railways used a similar system, jusrt as enigmatic, eg a Great Western 'siphon' was a ventilated van, mainly for milk trasnsport

 

Gerry

[iphoenix]

In the old days orders from agents were often sent by telegraph, and the transmission was paid by the number of words or characters. It was common commercial practice between the wars to use codes of this type to save on telegraph costs.Obviously, "ELANG" was shorter and cheaper than "Neun Zentineter Elmar".

 

The old man from the Age of the Morse Code

It would be interesting to know what Leitz's codes were. I have a Birmingham steel merchant's catalogue from 1921 which, aside from the product codes, gives codes for: Ordering, Shipping Instructions, Answers, Weights & Measures, Prices and many other things. An example is 22 1/2% Discount = "DOUBTINGLY". There must be a reference to Leitz's codes somewhere , then probably , and eventually .

[lars_bergquist]

There is a code word index in Dennis Laney: Leica Collector's Guide, 2nd edition, 2005.

 

The old man from the Age of the Morse Code

[jc_braconi]

There is a code word index in Dennis Laney: Leica Collector's Guide, 2nd edition, 2005.

 

The old man from the Age of the Morse Code

 

And in the Rogliatti "Leica The first 60 years"

[Pecole]

It is amazing the amount of information available through the members of this forum. I am pleased to have prompted such a discussion with my query. Van Hasbroeck's book has been the source of much of my information and does not appear to have any reference to a code name with the suffix ...kup. However, I see the reference to the 135mm f4.5 Elmar shows the coupled version as having the code "EFERMKUD". Could the ...kud be a misprint?

 

Of course, it is a misprint! and even a double one : the 135 Elmar has been coded EFERM, but EFERN with a N, not a M, and KUD is for KUP.It is surprising that this error existed in the first edition of van Hasbroeck's book (1983), and still was there in the 1993 "revised" edition...

[iphoenix]

Of course, it is a misprint! and even a double one : the 135 Elmar has been coded EFERM, but EFERN with a N, not a M, and KUD is for KUP.It is surprising that this error existed in the first edition of van Hasbroeck's book (1983), and still was there in the 1993 "revised" edition...

Thank you Pecole, and all the other forum members. It seems that my questions have now been answered :D. "...kup" is for coupled; the box is earlier than the lens and is probably quite scarce; the box may have been taken from old stock during war-time conditions;based on serial no. the lens is probably one of the earliest 9cm Elmars to be production coated (being 1942 production); and 1946 was not the actual first year of factory coating, but can probably be taken as a guide to when coating was applied generally. Please tell me if anyone disagrees with my conclusion/s.

[iphoenix]

I've continued to occasionally search Google under Elangkup. The April 1932 Leica accessory catalogue shown at: www.summilux.net-documents-LeicaCouplex.pdf gives details (in French) of all then current coupled lenses, including the Elangkup. It seems "...kup" was, to begin with, applied to all lenses that were rangefinder coupled. Does anyone know when the suffix was dropped?

[wlaidlaw]

Given that these codes were "telegraphese" and possibly assigned by a secretary or manager rather than a lens designer, simply so that orders from dealers and stock levels could be coordinated, it may be that direct meanings/significance may be less exact than we might expect. In other words at some times "KUP" could mean RF coupled and at other times refer to nickel plating. My father used to use telgraphese codings for orders of various items from his textile factory and he ran out of sensible/logical abbreviations and had to use arbitrary ones. Something similar may have happened at Leica.

 

Wilson

[iphoenix]

Thanks Wilson, but would you expect "Elangkup" or other "....kup's" to be shown on the lens boxes? Whilst, of course, anything is a possibility, I do think that the 1932 French catalogue suggests that it may have been a suffix qualifying that the applicable lens was rangefinder coupled; and in that circumstance, I doubt that Leitz/Leica would have used that coding for more than one product. Also, when considering telegraph codings, I think there may have been a security aspect included in their codings (ref my post 28). Kind Regards and Compliments of the Season; David

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks Wilson, but would you expect "Elangkup" or other "....kup's" to be shown on the lens boxes? Whilst, of course, anything is a possibility, I do think that the 1932 French catalogue suggests that it may have been a suffix qualifying that the applicable lens was rangefinder coupled; and in that circumstance, I doubt that Leitz/Leica would have used that coding for more than one product. Also, when considering telegraph codings, I think there may have been a security aspect included in their codings (ref my post 28). Kind Regards and Compliments of the Season; David

 

David,

 

I doubt if security or industrial secrecy was a big factor, in that many Leica items actually became known by their telegraphic names (PLOOT, etc). Again for stock control/easy identification in the warehouse at Wetzlar, it would have made sense to print the telegraphic names on the boxes, as a unique ID. From time to time, wrong items will have been put in wrong boxes (my M8 was sealed in the wrong box with paperwork relating to a quite different M8), which may have led to various conspiracy theories and legends of "super-rare" items.

 

In that Leica has all the records (I don't think much was destroyed during 39-45), it would be an excellent service to aficionados like many of us here, if they commissioned and had printed a definitive Leica Photographic Source Book, with all item telegraphic and numerical codes, serial number ranges, dates of manufacture, pictures and description of items, variations etc. I know lots of authors have tried this but the data is often inconsistent and/or incomplete between sources, which can lead to heated and circular argument threads on this forum. I think such a book would have reasonable sales.

 

Wilson

[luigi bertolotti]

I've continued to occasionally search Google under Elangkup. The April 1932 Leica accessory catalogue shown at: www.summilux.net-documents-LeicaCouplex.pdf gives details (in French) of all then current coupled lenses, including the Elangkup. It seems "...kup" was, to begin with, applied to all lenses that were rangefinder coupled. Does anyone know when the suffix was dropped?

 

I think that the KUP suffix was dropped in 1933, when the uncoupled lenses weren't anymore sold... the Summar, introduced in 1933, was offered only as a RF coupled lens

[jc_braconi]

I make some picts about the 1932 printed "Warum Leica" leaflet so you can find a lot of interesting details.

Please note that the Elmar 4:90 illustrated in this pages is the "Fat" Elmar.

Note also what is written about the Efern *)

Hoping that will help.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[iphoenix]

Thank you Wilson, Luigi and JC. Your information is really appreciated. Just one further question, if I may: As JC has said the Elangkup was the "fat Elmar", what was the overall length, the diameter at the widest point, and was it supplied new with both front and rear caps? Kind Regards, David

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[luigi bertolotti]

Another document about the transition / coexistence of "KUP" and "unKUP" lenses...

The 1934 Leitz New York catalog listed only coupled lenses (but, in some cases, with the "CHROM" suffix to distinguish the finishing)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!