photokina - Your Questions To Leica

[UliWer]

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I thought they did. Isn't all the talk of an "R solution" just wishful thinking fanned by some unwise PR from within Leica? In my opinion, Leica will never sell an R digital body unless they sell R lenses to go with it - and I think the latter is even less likely to happen than the body. I know that there are a lot of existing R users in the marketplace but you cannot sell a new Leica R body without lenses to go with it ("I'll have a lens to go with my new R10 please. "Sorry sir, you'll have to look on eBay for those.").

 

You can't describe the R- problem more precisely than this.

 

The only chance of a "solution", which I could imagine is a sort of new Digilux with it's own

AF-lenses and an adapter for R-lenses which enables automatic aperture.

 

It should have a FF-CMOS sensor. Though, if I did get it right, what they said on the meeting last saturday, there is just no such sensor on the market for Leica. This remark wasn't made explicitely in context of any R-solution, but much more generally.

 

We see different brands having sensors of any format, but we just don't know whether Leica has access to any of them.

 

So the R-solution would need several problems still unsolved for Leica: adaption of more than one lens systems, new AF-lenses, EVIL and a new sensor techology. All this squeezed in a very limited market with uncertain chances.

 

Either Leica is very, very brave, or they should better say: the R-system is past time. There will be no follow up.

[masjah]

.... in which case they should come clean, and say so explicitly (so that we R users know exactly where we are) rather than continue along the lines "we recognise the problems faced by R users and are working on a non-Leica, non-SLR, acceptable solution, so don't get rid or your R glass" (which is effectively what they've said up to now).

[dkCambridgeshire]

Sigma is a small specialist player in the DSLR market that is trying to compete on IQ and distinctive technology not features. The Leica brand could be of more value to Sigma than to Nikon or Canon.

 

And the Foveon technology is - at least in principle - in important ways a better solution than the traditional Bayer array.

 

Foveon 'three layer' has so much potential ... Unfortunately Sigma has not yet been able to make the best use of it ... If Canon, Nikon, Sony or Kodak were developing Foveon it might be streets ahead by now.

 

dunk

[mjh]

I thought they did. Isn't all the talk of an "R solution" just wishful thinking fanned by some unwise PR from within Leica? In my opinion, Leica will never sell an R digital body unless they sell R lenses to go with it - and I think the latter is even less likely to happen than the body.

Yes, the R system is dead – it was pronounced dead in the spring of 2009 if I remember correctly. This implies that neither will Leica manufacture the R9 or its lenses ever again, nor will there be a new digital body (aka R10) or new AF lenses for a modified R mount.

 

The suggested adequate solution for R lenses was never claimed to be a DSLR, and likewise was it never claimed to be, strictly speaking, a part of the R system. Again, the R system is dead. But whatever it will turn out to be (if it materialises at all, that is), it will offer some compatibility with R lenses, ideally to a higher degree than the existing solutions based on third-party bodies. Given that the dwindling market comprised of die-hard R photographers would most likely be too small to support a new camera, I suppose the “adequate solution” would cater for a wider audience, compatibility with R lenses being just a welcome side-effect.

[mooky]

I had mentioned elsewhere that while we wait for Stefan Daniels' and other comments from last Saturdays' meeting - and what we have been told by Andreas in brief; Stefan Daniels is Leicas' product manager or something to that effect.

 

But Leica, as shown by past communications, seems to miss the mark as much as they hit the mark.

 

While it's great that they come out to answer questions - perhaps it would be handled a bit better by having a PR person who actually has experience in the PR area instead of casual, or ill timed comments that clearly get themselves and everyone else in knots. Simply put, in the Mega-Pixel video 'interview' , Daniels answers the question as to whether Leica will have DSLR, and the answer was no'.

 

Too, the interviewer could have asked about the R solution, but there was an example of a missed opportunity from Leica to say they are working on an R lens solution, as a PR person could have done - Leica may be feeling a bit 'stung' by the comments they give out - but they have to understand why. Just have one person be in charge of answering the questions and putting out releases to minimize having to deal with the headaches.

[J Mitchum]

.... in which case they should come clean, and say so explicitly (so that we R users know exactly where we are) rather than continue along the lines "we recognise the problems faced by R users and are working on a non-Leica, non-SLR, acceptable solution, so don't get rid or your R glass" (which is effectively what they've said up to now).

 

Specifically this is what Leica said in response two weeks ago to a customer asking about the R-lens 'solution' mentioned by Stefan Daniels...

 

“We are fully aware that you like to use your valuable R lenses on a digital Leica body in a adequate way. This need has been integrated into the development of new camera systems. We kindly ask for your understanding that we cannot make a more precise statement or detailed information concerning new developments or possible market introduction dates.”

[masjah]

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Specifically this is what Leica said in response two weeks ago to a customer asking about the R-lens 'solution' mentioned by Stefan Daniels...

 

“We are fully aware that you like to use your valuable R lenses on a digital Leica body in a adequate way. This need has been integrated into the development of new camera systems. We kindly ask for your understanding that we cannot make a more precise statement or detailed information concerning new developments or possible market introduction dates.”

 

Yes, of course I recognise that. But I'm just beginning to think that tomorrow never comes!

[wlaidlaw]

Yes, of course I recognise that. But I'm just beginning to think that tomorrow never comes!

 

John,

 

There is a traditional sign in hoary old English village pubs "Free beer tomorrow" - same for R lens solution?

 

Wilson

[Mantice]

Yes, of course I recognise that. But I'm just beginning to think that tomorrow never comes!

 

The same nasty statement for years - I would suggest don't even take it. I understand those Leica representatives in the boot may be told not to explicit say anything. Personally I think they should say out explicitly that no R.

 

I agree with J, and for my selfish reason: with no R solution some unrealistic dreamers (sellers thinking about the reanimate of R from Leica that could make a profit) can finally dump their R collection so I can pick those up at reasonable price.

 

Better for me, better for those people (so they can move on), and better for R lenses (so they can be on my Canon body instead of someone's drawer or years). Hopefully I can pick up ver2 28mm, 60mm, 100mm before someone praise it so much that those become more of a collector's item.

[Posto 6]

I passed by the Leica London shop, as well as a nearby retaiker, pressing very hard on the R-issue (I am on a trip to the UK).

 

-It appears that the Leica shop get a continuous stream of requests for an R "solution"' which are passedon to Solms. Furthermore, the sales manager assured me that he had personally spoken to the head of production, who assured him that something was in the pipeline, but that other priorities should be taken care of first.

 

-It also seems that there are some working prototype R10s that were made and evaluated at Solms before they dropeed the idea (according to the well-nown retailer). As Leica no longer seem to keep their prototypes, I myself would be extremely interested in securing one of these, at my risk and in full knowledge of any implicit shortcomings. How about Leica auctioning these off in the Forum or on eBay? This would also generate plenty of interest in the R-replacemnet, and show that the project remains viable.

 

Leica are small, but seem to be much better run than in the recent past. They should also show more creativity and marketing savvy. The whole orientation could be made towards the S2 if required.

 

Remember, however- nobody will be willing to make a serious finacial commitment to the S2 range, if they know that their expensively-acquired S glass risks beingturned into glorified paperweights if Leica's internal sales targets are not met and Leica also drop the S2 range as a result

[mooky]

I passed by the Leica London shop, as well as a nearby retaiker, pressing very hard on the R-issue (I am on a trip to the UK).

 

-It appears that the Leica shop get a continuous stream of requests for an R "solution"' which are passedon to Solms. Furthermore, the sales manager assured me that he had personally spoken to the head of production, who assured him that something was in the pipeline, but that other priorities should be taken care of first.

 

-It also seems that there are some working prototype R10s that were made and evaluated at Solms before they dropeed the idea (according to the well-nown retailer). As Leica no longer seem to keep their prototypes, I myself would be extremely interested in securing one of these, at my risk and in full knowledge of any implicit shortcomings. How about Leica auctioning these off in the Forum or on eBay? This would also generate plenty of interest in the R-replacemnet, and show that the project remains viable.

 

Leica are small, but seem to be much better run than in the recent past. They should also show more creativity and marketing savvy. The whole orientation could be made towards the S2 if required.

 

Remember, however- nobody will be willing to make a serious finacial commitment to the S2 range, if they know that their expensively-acquired S glass risks beingturned into glorified paperweights if Leica's internal sales targets are not met and Leica also drop the S2 range as a result

 

They are lagging and trying to catch up with the M9 orders and production demand as well as an increase in new M lens sales - while that's great it really must handcuff them for new product development and time-lines. It would be interesting to see any R10 prototypes, but I don't think they'd let those go any time soon as they probably contain some tech/designs they wouldn't 'out there' right now. It's good to hear from another 'product source' that the mythical 'something' is moving forward - even if slowly.

 

Perhaps it's time for Leica to have a PR person, instead of executives commenting? Thanks for the info - you should have been at Photokina!

[hoppyman]

A friend living in Germany works as a professional translator and has provided this from the text on the Leica blog. It may be of interest while we wait for Andreas to have time to finish his summary for us.

 

Before all the rumours start again...

R-System

Eine digitale Lösung in Form einer digitalen R10 war “nicht darstellbar”. Ihre Entwicklung hätte die Kräfte der Leica Camera AG einfach überfordert. Die Entwicklung des S-Systems hat 30 Mio Entwicklungskosten erfordert, eine ähnliche Kraftanstrengung für die digitale R hätte die Firma finanziell überfordert.

 

Was ist die „Digitale Lösung für R-Objektive“?

Die schlechte Nachricht: Es gibt derzeit keine Lösung. Leica arbeitet aber an einer Lösung ohne Spiegel, die genauen Spezifikationen sind aber derzeit noch offen. Ankündigungen sollen in Zukunft generell erst dann gemacht werden, sobald die Lieferbarkeit sicher gestellt ist.

Herr Schopf betonte in diesem Zusammenhang, dass Leica derzeit Zeit zur wirtschaftlichen Erholung benötigt.

 

A quick and dirty translation (comments in brackets are to cover linguistic ambiguities)

 

R-Solution

A digital solution in the form of an R 10 was not possible/feasible (darstellbar is engineer-speak). The development costs would have overstrained Leica Camera AG. The development of the S-System cost 30 million euros in development costs alone; a similar investment (effort and money) for a digital R would have overstrained the company's finances.

In the same context, Mr Schopf emphasised that Leica currently needs some time for economic recovery (financial recovery).

 

What is the ‘Digital solution for R lenses?

The bad news first: there is currently no solution. Leica is looking into a mirrorless solution, but the precise specifications have not been decided (are still wide open). In the future, announcements will only be made when a product is deliverable.

[menos I M6]

On Leica Rumors has been a post about the meeting, which included the information, that "weather sealing is on the list for an M9 successor".

 

So whatever this means (in marketing language, necessarily nothing at all), I am waiting patiently and looking forward to further improvements of Leica's digital M ;-)

 

It's nice, to know, weather sealing, as a serious feature is on a list - lets' hope, it makes it into the final decisions (2012 anyone ?).

[stunsworth]

Geoff, thanks. IMHO Leica should bite the bullet and say that there won't be an R solution.

 

I've said previously that I think that had the S system been at an early stage of development it too would have been canned - or at best mothballed - when the global financial crisis hit. However with the camera so near completion I can understand why Leica were so reluctant to write off what would be for them a huge amount of money.

 

I look forward to Andreas's transcript, but I expect any R news to be a rewording of the above, perhaps with more detail.

[andybarton]

Andreas's report is available now, in German, and is being translated by someone other than Google, today or tomorrow.

[veraikon]

R-System

Eine digitale Lösung in Form einer digitalen R10 war “nicht darstellbar”.

 

R-Solution

A digital solution in the form of an R 10 was not possible/feasible (darstellbar is engineer-speak).

..

 

I would use for "darstellbar" the english word “presentable”. What means inside your developping engineer team you have sketches/ functionable working models , which you can´t present at this stage of developpment to a public outside. If they use "darstellbar" for me it is a sign that they work seriously on a solution.

 

==> http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-blog/de/2010/09/leica-fragestunde-photokina-das-protokoll/

[earleygallery]

Geoff, thanks. IMHO Leica should bite the bullet and say that there won't be an R solution.

 

Or, perhaps something along the lines of "We are not working on a specific R 'solution'. We are however always working on improving our current products and developing new products, by ourselves and in collaboration with other companies (i.e. Panasonic). It is however possible that one such future product will enable use of legacy R lenses, however there is no such product being scheduled for release in the near future, nor can we give any timescales for such a product, or indeed any promise that any such product will ever be released".

[stunsworth]

Andreas's report is available now, in German, and is being translated by someone other than Google, today or tomorrow.

 

Google translation here, though bear in mind that German to English isn't the easiest translation for an automated system to make, and the human translation will be much more accurate...

 

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.l-camera-forum.com%2Fleica-blog%2Fde%2F2010%2F09%2Fleica-fragestunde-photokina-das-protokoll%2F

[mjh]

“nicht darstellbar” in this context means “not feasible”. You can take my word for it.

 

The R10 project has been canned long ago. It is an ex-project. The “R solution” will be something entirely different, but even Leica does not yet know what exactly it will turn out to be.

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Hallo,

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[SJP]

another part translated by me: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/143669-two-dead-m9s-5.html#post1469393