Two Dead M9s

[ozdavid]

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I have been using Leica Ms for many years including M7, MP and M8. I've also owned an SL, R7, R8 and R9. Much of my equipment has been to Solms for a CLA and I have always received impeccable service.

 

This makes my recent experience trying to buy an M9 all the more frustrating. I decided to trade my M8 upgrade on a new M9. On Friday night I proudly collected it from my Melbourne Dealer but found when I got home that it was dead: "Attention no SD card" was the greeting I received trying multiple SanDisk cards at home and in the shop.

 

My dealer took it back on Monday and this morning told me they had reallocated their last M9 in stock to me. So again I went down, spare charged battery and SD card in hand: "Attention shutter fault" was the greeting from the second body this time! We tried it at each shutter speed but no change (though it did recognise the SD card!)

 

Although they will of course replace it, Adeal the Australian distributor, who confirmed that both bodies were legitimate stock received from the factory, says it will have no stock until late October at the earliest.

 

What is happening at Solms? How can two successive dead cameras slide through quality control.

 

Perhaps we should be urging Leica to pause with new product development and spend a little more time on quality control?

 

Am I being unreasonable or is this less than I can reasonably expect from a firm for which I have held such admiration and respect for so long?

 

David

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[brill64]

bad luck, david and commiserations...it's a tough one to swallow. don't be too downhearted. you're not jinxed, it's just a coincidence and leica will look into it. my macbook air just gave up the ghost and my blackberry fried the following day, both for no particular reason. they only have one year's warranty which is expired. my m9 has two years international warranty and the service i've had from leica has been impeccable, not to mention all the wonderful images i've had.

[mgreernz]

I'm not at all convinced this is just bad luck. Nor am I convinced that a palliative "Leica will look into it" is in any way reassuring. As one who also had to surrender a new M9 for "repair" after just 23 days, and has read the numerous similar experiences of others on this forum, I have grave doubts about Leica's current quality controls. I can't help wonder whether the prospect of profiting from the production of an M9ti has meant that Leica's QC budget has been more recently decimated by R&D demands.

[andybarton]

The M9T has nothing to do with it.

[mgreernz]

I concede that may be so Andy. But it still begs the question: what's happened to their QC?

[aesop]

I concede that may be so Andy. But it still begs the question: what's happened to their QC?

 

...whatever the reason, it certainly isn't "R&D demands" for a glorified M9. I'm not questioning your standpoint, mgreernz, but a bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss.

[mgreernz]

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Well from whatever perspective you look at it, it does seem there is a QC problem to be addressed.

[mhoersch]

The M9T has nothing to do with it.

 

Yes, it has. Sorry to contradict you here, Andy.

 

I can easily understand people who find it extremely annoying to watch Dr. K. having the time of his life when presenting the M9T - while customers who are actually buying a product from Leica have experiences like the OP.

 

Some might consider it a great idea if Leica spent less time and money on Dr. K. having fun than on avoiding cracking sensors, red corners and dead shutters. For Christ's sake, that camera has been on the market for one whole year, and apparently Leica has done nothing to fix the problems! What customers like the OP might acutally want is a product that works, not a a titanium version.

[andybarton]

The production of a small number of M9Ts has nothing to do with Leica's Quality Control of lack thereof. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the M9T bodies aren't even made in the same place as normal M9s, nor if we find that the project is part funded by VAG.

 

The guts of the thing is the same as normal M9s, of course, so will be subject to the same QC issues as normal M9s coming through the line now. But, given that they are unlikely ever to be used, we will never know if they have sensor issues or whathaveyou.

 

Leica clearly need to spend more money on the final check Quality Control, as do most manufacturers if they are looking to achieve a 100% satisfaction rate, out of the box. But, I suspect that the fact that two M9s in one dealer have a problem out of the box is more a coincidence than anything more sinister, as there are now 1,000s of M9s that DON'T have problems out of the box, or at all.

[rosuna]

But, I suspect that the fact that two M9s in one dealer have a problem out of the box is more a coincidence than anything more sinister, as there are now 1,000s of M9s that DON'T have problems out of the box, or at all.

 

The meaningful number is the ratio of cameras with failures requiring a visit to Solms for "repair" during the first year over total cameras produced in the first year.

 

A coincidence is possible and means nothing, but thousands of cameras without problems means nothing too. The above mentioned ratio may be alarming even if your claim is perfectly correct (and it has to be).

 

I don't blame Leica or Leica alone for this. It may be lack of quality control by suppliers and subcontractors. Leica has not the means for checking all the components they buy from other companies. Those companies have to have their own quality control systems. When a highly specialized company that supplies components for you fails, what are the alternatives in Europe? I am trying to say that the problem may be more complex than it appears, and the solution is not as easy as increasing the quality checks in factory. Even more, the camera may seem to be perfect when leaving the factory...

[neli]

I just picked up my M9Ti from my dealer here and it was DOA.

"Attention Titanium shutter fault"

Worth the extra $22K?

[mgreernz]

In the nicest possible way of course , I'm willing to do battle on this issue. There have been a significant number of reports on this forum of M9's either DOA or with major faults within the first few weeks or months. More than just a few. And it can't be simply dismissed as just a few highly strung consumers wanting 110% perfection.

 

It's not acceptable when having expended NZ$10,000 (or whatever the UK or Euro equivalent of that is) to be told that the product's failure must be just a "coincidence" or (as seems to be more commonly stated here in NZ by the Leica distributor) "We've never seen this problem before".

 

Maybe it's less from the UK, Europe or US, but from here in NZ, a return to Solms means a minimum 6-8 week absence. Even if (as uncommon as it appears to be at this end of the world), there is the offer of replacement product, it comes with the catch that no-one can say if or when that replacement product might arrive. You and I have probably both lost count of how long we've been waiting for a 50 Lux or a 35 Lux.

 

So no wonder that when product finally arrives there is an outpouring of frustration at the failure of Leica's QC. There's often not even meaningful comment from Solms when faults in warranty are addressed - just an obscure line or two on the shipping docket. Or, in my case, one email telling me there was no problem, while another was informing me of the major failure that had been found. It seemed that not only had QC failed, but confusion reigned.

 

I'd be a little more at ease about this if there was some small signal from Leica that it recognized that current QC standards are an issue for them and that they are doing this or that to address it. But there's not a dicky bird. Nothing. Zit. Tiddly squat.

 

Instead they churn out a M9ti and expect applause.

[ozdavid]

Andy, I tend to agree that it is unlikely that that R & D on the M9t has had a significant impact on the issue I've confronted.

 

On the other hand, I do believe that their is a QC issue. With respect to each of the DOAs I encountered over the last 5 days there was no need for QC to undertake some complex and sophisticated technical analysis. All that was required was the insertion of a battery and a SD card, turning on the power, and if no error message appeared, depressing the shutter!

 

If these most basic of steps had been taken, the failure of the camera would have been detected before it was shiped to the Antipodes.

 

I understood that in the days of analogue cameras, Leica used proudly to claim that every camera was checked before leaving the factory. My experience would seem to demonstrate that this is no longer the case.

 

Leica is justifiably marketing itself as the supplier of premium products justifying a substantial price premium over the products supplied by its competitors. It seems to me that it is fundamental to this process that it revise its QC to a level where AT LEAST these fundamental issues are identified before shipping.

 

I can understand the complexity of eliminating defects which don't appear for weeks after first use. I have much greater difficulty in accepting that Leica can reasonably expect its customers to be happy with such a low level of QC that failure in basic functions is not detected before the camera leaves the factory.

 

I have been communicating these concerns to the ever helpful people in Solms and am looking forward with interest to their response to this issue as it is clear that I am not the only customer who has experienced it.

[BKK dan]

I "tried" to buy an M9 in July in Europa.

 

Paid already, still playing around with the camera in the shop, the top part came off.

 

Wasn't screwed, we found out.

 

Leica was very cooperative in the aftermath ... They got the serial number and must know who screwed up with the screw at Solms and who was sleeping at QC ...

[wattsy]

Paid already, still playing around with the camera in the shop, the top part came off. Wasn't screwed, we found out.

 

Classic.

[russell]

There does seem to be quite a few problems with the M9.

I've had my own problem out of the box and now Leica had my money and my camera.

 

The Ti does have some effect here. Why? Because Leica is also constrained by scarce resources. If they've redirected/employed these resources on the Ti and taken them off quality control and customer service that causes a problem.

[andybarton]

If they've redirected/employed these resources on the Ti and taken them off quality control and customer service that causes a problem.

 

There is no evidence at all that this is what Leica have done and , IMO, is going to be highly unlikely.

 

All that will have happened is that 500 normal M9s might not have been made while the M9T's go through the system.

 

That doesn't mean to say that there aren't some problems with Quality Control, but let's not muddy the waters by bringing the M9T into the equation. Your M9 problems started when the M9T was but a twinkle in Dr Kaufmann's eye.

[jplomley]

Two trips to NJ along with an assortment of lenses to get my M9 issues sorted out. I was all set to grab a second M9 and was seriously considering a Noctilux Asph, but after my experiences I am putting both those acquisitions on-hold.

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[charlesphoto99]

There is no evidence at all that this is what Leica have done and , IMO, is going to be highly unlikely.

 

All that will have happened is that 500 normal M9s might not have been made while the M9T's go through the system.

 

That doesn't mean to say that there aren't some problems with Quality Control, but let's not muddy the waters by bringing the M9T into the equation. Your M9 problems started when the M9T was but a twinkle in Dr Kaufmann's eye.

 

No, but it's the PERCEPTION that goads. I'm sure the actual production of the M9ti has nothing to do with the assembly line of the normal M9, but the perception of the ol' boys club slapping each other on the back over their new limited luxury item while many having paid what to them is lots of $ for a working camera find it languishing in Solms waiting for a new part with little to no communication. In other words, Herr Kaufman, don't forget the "common people." The sensors in new production M9 or M9ti's should have been going priority to the cracked ones, or brand new cameras should have been shipped out overnight.

 

They really do need to get their sh*t together with QC and service. Fortunately my M9 has been great, but it is nerve wracking knowing there may be a 2-4 month wait if something goes wrong and I can't afford a backup. My M8 had numerous issues and trips to Leica NJ (first one was total lemon) as well as other service issues with coding lenses, etc. (like coding a 28 as a 24 after an eight week wait).

 

It's the hubris that is beginning to wear, and if you don't see that Andy then you must be breathing the same rarified air that seems to hang in a bubble over Solms. I love Leicas (I have their logo tattooed on my forearm) but it's miserable to see them pander to the sports car set and not working photographers.

[Shootist]

There is no evidence at all that this is what Leica have done and , IMO, is going to be highly unlikely.

 

All that will have happened is that 500 normal M9s might not have been made while the M9T's go through the system.

 

That doesn't mean to say that there aren't some problems with Quality Control, but let's not muddy the waters by bringing the M9T into the equation. Your M9 problems started when the M9T was but a twinkle in Dr Kaufmann's eye.

 

Andy it is clear that Leica does NOT care about it's customers. Russel had a M9 with a sticky lens locking lug. Sent the camera in for service (This was on a BRAND NEW M9) and he has been told the part is not in stock, what a crock of Sh!t. They have parts for the Ti, they have parts for production M9's but can't use one of those on a camera that someone spent US $7000 on so he can have a properly working camera.