farnz Posted October 4, 2010 Share #461 Posted October 4, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Reuben, 30 million Euro is a colossal development cost so isn't it conceivable that it includes the cost of development of all the announced lenses? If so, the outlook appears a little more favourable. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 Hi farnz, Take a look here photokina - Your Questions To Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rosuna Posted October 4, 2010 Share #462 Posted October 4, 2010 Reuben, 30 million Euro is a colossal development cost so isn't it conceivable that it includes the cost of development of all the announced lenses? If so, the outlook appears a little more favourable. Pete. Right Pete! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posto 6 Posted October 4, 2010 Share #463 Posted October 4, 2010 The S2 is nice, but with the rapidly developing pace of electronics (and the competition), I for one cannot really understand why the Company's chips were essentially wagered on what could very well end up as a red herring. It actually looks as if the S2 is a direct development of the R10, which was stillborn due (at the time) to the lack of a suitable sensor (24-plus MP) capable of competing with CaNikon. If I owned Leica, I would seriously consider separating the whole S2 project from the main Company, possibly into a special-purpose joint venture with someone like Panasonic or Sony. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo.Battista Posted October 4, 2010 Share #464 Posted October 4, 2010 Maybe I am off-topic, or something else... But, after two hours of FAQs with Leica and our forum people, all what we know ("we" who couldn't be there) is a really brief report in German Language. What's happened? A really tight Non Disclosure Agreement that Leica had imposed to sign to all of the attendees? :D:D It's only a bit of humor obviously, don't take my post for that all serious... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 4, 2010 Share #465 Posted October 4, 2010 A translation by a real German and a real Englishman should be with you tomorrow. Been a bit busy with the job that pays the mortgage... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 4, 2010 Share #466 Posted October 4, 2010 A translation by a real German and a real Englishman should be with you tomorrow. Been a bit busy with the job that pays the mortgage... The material to be published tomorrow... will it be longer than the already known text in German? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 4, 2010 Share #467 Posted October 4, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) A translation by a real German and a real Englishman should be with you tomorrow. Been a bit busy with the job that pays the mortgage... The material to be published tomorrow... will it be longer than the already known text in German? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted October 5, 2010 Share #468 Posted October 5, 2010 It actually looks as if the S2 is a direct development of the R10, which was stillborn due (at the time) to the lack of a suitable sensor (24-plus MP) capable of competing with CaNikon. What's the evidence that the R10 was cancelled for lack of a suitable sensor? After all, the M9 sensor was on the horizon at the time. A much better explanation is that Leica didn't believe that any R10 they could build would be profitable when selling directly against the top Canon and Nikon gear. Hence the S2 as an attempt to define a new market niche with - for now - no direct competitor. By the way, saying the S2 is "a direct development of the R10" implies you believe the R10 itself was developed to a pretty advanced state - working prototypes, AF mechanisms etc. - before being dropped. Is there any evidence of this, or did you just mean the obvious fact that some of the work done for the R10 informed early work on the S2? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 5, 2010 Share #469 Posted October 5, 2010 I would have been the other way round. Both S2 and R10 were part of Projekt AFrika. If you can be patient for 18 hours, I will post the translation from the PK interview. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posto 6 Posted October 5, 2010 Share #470 Posted October 5, 2010 I would have been the other way round. Both S2 and R10 were part of Projekt AFrika. If you can be patient for 18 hours, I will post the translation from the PK interview. Thanks, Andy for your help on this- look forward to seeing it when you get the chance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roydonian Posted October 5, 2010 Share #471 Posted October 5, 2010 We now have three threads discussing the ‘R-solution’ and discussions with Leica at Photokina. What I have already contributed to one of those was some information of the planned camera that was given to the LHSA meeting Wetzlar by Stefan Daniel. Since this Q&A session was given to the LHSA, it seems fair that any full report on what was said appears in the next issue of the LHSA journal (which should ‘hit the streets’ in three month’s time). It was a fairly long discussion and touched on many of the ‘future product’ questions often posed in this forum. But to repeat what I posted in one of the other threads, an ‘R-solution’ is still planned, according to Daniel (who is himself an R user), and is expected to take the form of a full-frame body compatible with both M and R series lenses, and based on a high-quality electronic viewfinder. But it will be a long-term project which we should not expect to see at the next Photokina. At one point Daniel asked the LHSA group’s opinion on one possible feature that might be offered on the camera, which suggests that the concept for such a design is still at a very early stage. A lot of us were probably concerned that Leica might offer R users a minimal solution – a sort of full-frame ‘Digilux 2 on steroids’ with an R mount. However, the company is aware that other manufacturers will almost certainly be offering full-frame EVF bodies on a similar timescale, so it needs to come up with a solution with features that will persuade the people to buy the Leica one, Daniel stated. I suspect that the new camera might be intended to serve as the camera-body equivalent of the Summarit lenses – a lower-cost entry point into the M system. Best regards, Doug 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 5, 2010 Share #472 Posted October 5, 2010 We now have three threads discussing the ‘R-solution’ and discussions with Leica at Photokina. What I have already contributed to one of those was some information of the planned camera that was given to the LHSA meeting Wetzlar by Stefan Daniel. Since this Q&A session was given to the LHSA, it seems fair that any full report on what was said appears in the next issue of the LHSA journal (which should ‘hit the streets’ in three month’s time). It was a fairly long discussion and touched on many of the ‘future product’ questions often posed in this forum. But to repeat what I posted in one of the other threads, an ‘R-solution’ is still planned, according to Daniel (who is himself an R user), and is expected to take the form of a full-frame body compatible with both M and R series lenses, and based on a high-quality electronic viewfinder. But it will be a long-term project which we should not expect to see at the next Photokina. At one point Daniel asked the LHSA group’s opinion on one possible feature that might be offered on the camera, which suggests that the concept for such a design is still at a very early stage. A lot of us were probably concerned that Leica might offer R users a minimal solution – a sort of full-frame ‘Digilux 2 on steroids’ with an R mount. However, the company is aware that other manufacturers will almost certainly be offering full-frame EVF bodies on a similar timescale, so it needs to come up with a solution with features that will persuade the people to buy the Leica one, Daniel stated. I suspect that the new camera might be intended to serve as the camera-body equivalent of the Summarit lenses – a lower-cost entry point into the M system. Best regards, Doug Doug, Those are great news! It is just the most rational plan, and I have promoted that idea here for a while. M lenses compatibility is even more important than R lens compatibility, because the M system is in production. The classical M system should be preserved, but two separate lines sharing the M mount are possible. Some kind of technological synergies are possible too. For instance, sharing of sensor (CMOS), processor, motherboard, etc. between cameras. Manual focus M lenses might be used on the electronic body, and live view would be possible in the classic body, for increased versatility. R lenses may be used with one adaptor. The plan maximizes synergies, simplification of the product line, etc. I guess Canon will do something regarding mirrorless cameras, and it will be 24x36 format. So the competition will be there too, but Leica already has the only current 24x36 mirrorless system, and it is a great base for the future. The reflex cameras challenged the hegemony of rangefinder cameras in the small format segment 50 years ago and now we see a revenge! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 5, 2010 Share #473 Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) The M mount would be too restrictive for a new camera (and new lenses) to be based on. I suspect we will see an all-new mount with electronic contacts, a diameter considerably larger than that of the M mount, but a short flange distance. Adapting M lenses would still be possible. (Btw, I think that compatibility with M lenses is actually less important since cameras for these lenses are still – and will continue to be – in production.) Edited October 5, 2010 by mjh 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Sharp Posted October 6, 2010 Share #474 Posted October 6, 2010 The BIG problem with R-lenses is going to be getting aperture information to the metering system and automatic stopping down for shooting - unless someone comes up with a very good idea for converting mechanical movement into electrical impulses and vice versa, the whole thing iwill be a throwback to the days of manual, stopped-down metering - and not much better than using adapters on Nikon/Canon or whatever. Cheers Douglas Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 6, 2010 Share #475 Posted October 6, 2010 The BIG problem with R-lenses is going to be getting aperture information to the metering system and automatic stopping down for shooting - unless someone comes up with a very good idea for converting mechanical movement into electrical impulses and vice versa, the whole thing iwill be a throwback to the days of manual, stopped-down metering - and not much better than using adapters on Nikon/Canon or whatever. Experience with currently available EVIL cameras would suggest this isn’t necessary. You select the aperture and the camera knows how to deal with the light that it gets. The electronic viewfinder will even show you the actual depth of field at the chosen aperture. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 6, 2010 Share #476 Posted October 6, 2010 "The electronic viewfinder will even show you the actual depth of field at the chosen aperture." What this really means is that one is trying to focus at f/8 or f/11. Personally, I find even a really good EVF (Panasonic GH-1), even at large apertures (f/1.4-f/2) is pretty dismal for finding accurate focus at anything faster than view-camera speeds. Works OK for video, with a tripod and posed subjects - but on the whole a year with the GH-1 has persuaded me I'll never buy another EVF camera, regardless of what lenses I can mount on it. But mjh is right concerning stoped-down metering - and Douglas is correct that this is not much different than using adapted SLRs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 6, 2010 Share #477 Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) "The electronic viewfinder will even show you the actual depth of field at the chosen aperture." What this really means is that one is trying to focus at f/8 or f/11. Personally, I find even a really good EVF (Panasonic GH-1), even at large apertures (f/1.4-f/2) is pretty dismal for finding accurate focus at anything faster than view-camera speeds. Works OK for video, with a tripod and posed subjects - but on the whole a year with the GH-1 has persuaded me I'll never buy another EVF camera, regardless of what lenses I can mount on it. But mjh is right concerning stoped-down metering - and Douglas is correct that this is not much different than using adapted SLRs. I think that we are going to see a revolution in EVF's. The quality is probably going to improve significantly over what most folks are imagining today. I can visualize a big bright EVF that also has some features never before seen in an optical VF...like the ability to zoom. How nice it would be to be able to compose a shot, and then zoom in (5X or 10X) to the focus spot, say an eyelash and then be able to achieve critical focus - right before pulling the trigger. This is totally feasible. You can do the same with LiveView today (granted on a tripod). A nice, big EVF would essentially be like the LCD monitor on the back of the camera - except, I think that the resolution could be even better. Adjustments could even be made for folks with vision problems...like a sophisticated electronic diopter setting. When are camera manufacturrs going to realize that a huge market of buyers (with disposible income) are over the age of 40 and have vision issues. I would pay a lot more for a camera that has a big, brilliant EVF and a large hi-rez rear LCD (think groundglass on a view camera). Imagine shooting on a tripod with a camera that has a 5"X5" hi-rez LCD which is tack sharp and allows easy composition, depth of field adjustments, foolproof critical focusing, and a way to see subtle adjustments with tilt/shift lenses. Landscapers and product shooters would be in heaven. And the big, bright, zoomable-focus EVF would be a boon to portrait shooters with fast glass. Manual focusing would become so precise that AF wouldn't even be needed except for fast moving subjects. * I'm not an electrical engineer, and am only assuming that these things are possible - but they seem feasible to me, and I would be first in line to buy a camera with such features (of course, it would have to have state of the art IQ too). Edited October 6, 2010 by Traveler typo 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 7, 2010 Share #478 Posted October 7, 2010 How nice it would be to be able to compose a shot, and then zoom in (5X or 10X) to the focus spot, say an eyelash and then be able to achieve critical focus - right before pulling the trigger. This is totally feasible..... Imagine shooting on a tripod with a camera that has a 5"X5" hi-rez LCD which is tack sharp and allows easy composition, depth of field adjustments, foolproof critical focusing, and a way to see subtle adjustments with tilt/shift lenses..... * I'm not an electrical engineer...... Nor a photojournalist shooting decisive moments or sports action either, I take it In my work, I have about 2 seconds to compose and shoot most of the pictures that are actually worth shooting. You're right about the aging eyes - but I find a split-image to be the only cure fast enough. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 7, 2010 Share #479 Posted October 7, 2010 Nor a photojournalist shooting decisive moments or sports action either, I take it In my work, I have about 2 seconds to compose and shoot most of the pictures that are actually worth shooting. You're right about the aging eyes - but I find a split-image to be the only cure fast enough. No Andy, I'm just a 'gentleman' photographer with plenty of time usually - and a penchant for methodical shooting. I don't have to do too much running + gunning...or make my living at this - thank heavens. Just musing about what kind of features would make shooting more accurate and enjoyable for me. I've been thinking about putting a split-image screen and a magnifying (1.25) eyepiece on my 5D2...and probably will - unless someone builds my dream camera first Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted October 7, 2010 Share #480 Posted October 7, 2010 No Andy, I'm just a 'gentleman' photographer with plenty of time usually - and a penchant for methodical shooting. I don't have to do too much running + gunning...or make my living at this - thank heavens. Just musing about what kind of features would make shooting more accurate and enjoyable for me. I've been thinking about putting a split-image screen and a magnifying (1.25) eyepiece on my 5D2...and probably will - unless someone builds my dream camera first What would be nice is a split image, better still a coincident image rangefinder, superimposed on the EVF, I wonder if that can be done with software Gerry, who spent much of his pro life focussing on a groundglass screen, and the image isn't upside down on my G1 either! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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