M9, last of the line?

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I was philosophizing a bit about the M9, and came up with the following. Leica is primarily an optical company, the core business is lenses. the current M lineup is close to perfection. Maybe an 28 Summilux, but after that? Precious little room for improvement. The only thing that could open new vistas for Peter Karbe would be a new lens mount. Larger, to allow more spectacular designs, and electronic coupling, to allow digital correction. In that field, we have not even seen the begining and the possibilities are endless. So the M10 may well be designed around a new mount with a larger size and an electronic interface -and a new name!, making the M9 the apex of the M series. Of course, Leica being Leica, there would be an adapter for the old M mount. It would make all speculation about adding extra " features" to the M9 rather pointless.

[zeitz]

Jaapv, I agree that it is time to open the lens mount design; it would certainly include an electronic interface and reading the aperture that is set. At the same time, autofocus of some type will need to be accommodated. There will be a challenge - to retain the unsurpassed feal of the Leica focusing mount while incorporating autofocus. The lenses can't grow to S2 size either.

[hoppyman]

Jaap Are you insane :D:D:D

Please check your room for gas leaks as you seem to be under the influence!

 

In my opnion as an amateur enthusiast, Peter Karbe's team is not at all interested in factoring in software corrections for lens CA or distortion for example in their design approach. Exactly the opposite, they successfully produce superb optical designs in order to avoid corrections later. That is NOT to say that the other technique is not legitimate. That is the strategy that is evolving amongst the large players and seems likely to become more dominant. Just look at the mFT designs. It is the antithesis of Leica Camera's philosophy though.

 

The new larger mount is already here with the S system. Herr Karbe has already gone on record saying that those lenses outresolve the current sensor AND the next generation. You only have to glance at the MTF diagrams to see that is true.

 

I think that M lenses are already at the limit of sensor dimensions (from image circle), but of course resolution may well increase, since that is the market trend in sensor design. I'm not convinced that we NEED more resolution in an M nor that the M10 will be more than an evolutionary refinement. I would expect an entirely in house project M10, maybe three years from release. Absolutely it will have the existing M mount Anything else would be market suicide in my view.

[cheewai_m6]

interesting thought. in my opinion, leica won't venture too far away from what the M series already is with the M10. i think there are enough improvements that can be made for the next M model for it to be an improved M. i hope the M series and M philosophy will be around as it is for the rest of my lifetime.

[AlanJW]

A new system with new mount, electronics, autofocus, etc. would not have to displace current M. Just another line. Leica has already shown it can and will offer different lines the X1 and S2 are examples. So we shouldn't be surprised if something else is in the works.

[Jeff S]

I think Jaap's thought is akin to Porsche killing off the 911. Sure, Porsche uses different model number designations now, but the 911 concept lives on and the more radical changes come through new car lines altogether. I would be quite surprised if Leica travelled a different path (except, I hope, not making it bigger over time like Porsche). There's money in that M line evolution.

 

Jeff

[AlanG]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think Jaap's thought is akin to Porsche killing off the 911. Sure, Porsche uses different model number designations now, but the 911 concept lives on and the more radical changes come through new car lines altogether. I would be quite surprised if Leica travelled a different path (except, I hope, not making it bigger over time like Porsche). There's money in that M line evolution.

 

Jeff

 

Porsche was able to adapt the 911 to make use of all kinds of different technology and features over the years. I don't think you could have squeezed the Nikon D3X technology into a Nikon F even without AF.

 

Jaapv, I agree with your sentiments...have you been plagiarizing my posts?

 

I think I get Jaapv's point that any future development of the M will be limited compared to what is possible with current technology. At minimum, Leica has to keep the M line viable as long as it can be profitable. (This may be quite a while.) Of course, if they have the resources, they also could make an entirely new system, that can supplement the M and maybe take over for it someday.

 

I'm hooking up with Craig Venter to work on thought control methods of camera focusing.

[barcoder]

the current M lineup is close to perfection.

 

Maybe, but if they are perfect I would argue they are only perfect based on the current technology. These advancements are few and far between, but they still happen.

 

This is actually a golden opportunity for any company. To create a product that is so good and so far ahead of the competition that you infrequently need to update it. Because of efficiencies in manufacturing they can make more profit off of each lens.

[diogenis]

I predict that, and especially after following great volume sales of M9, Leica will want to improve the M9 design even further. Obviously they will want to keep the current mount and lenses: you don't throw 50 years of legacy like that, it's suicide.

My bet is improvements in specifics: better LCD screen, more resolution, faster more responsive electronics for every function of the camera, better battery, better power management etc...

However they can fully redesign the optomechanical VF. The new VF should work like the old one, but with even more accuracy for the new lenses (if that's needed), with room for a decent HUD inside for displaying the important info, and some sort of range verification.

Then add some weather seals to the camera, especially on its top where its dials are.

And last, make room for some wireless transmission: I hear a new protocol will soon arrive which will take over all wired communication standards, called giga net or something like that. The road to a new M is fully open and can be developed even further. It's got great, huge potential don't ever think it's not. Watch at the direction the big companies take, followed by their clients requests for less volume/weight of their cameras.

With a little innovation, Leica will continue its M line.

[ho_co]

Isn't it amazing that a line with such a limited range of lenses has survived so long?

 

Leica has always surprised me with the introduction of new lenses we didn't know we needed, like the 75mm, or the 24mm, or the 90 macro. They always find a new niche just when I think they've got nowhere to go.

 

OTOH, a new offering is more than a possibility. Accomplishing anything on most of the M "want-lists" would apparently force the camera into a new size. (CMOS sensor would be thicker, there's no room for seals, apparently not even room for a PC connector, etc.) And that would mean "It's not an M."

 

Whenever it comes, it will be marketed as a new offering, not a replacement. When Leitz introduced the bayonet mount cameras, they kept the screw mount in production. Then if the new bird flies, the old one can creep off to the collectibles corner.

 

(And it's only four months till photokina.)

[Ecar]

I was philosophizing a bit about the M9, and came up with the following. Leica is primarily an optical company, the core business is lenses. the current M lineup is close to perfection. Maybe an 28 Summilux, but after that? Precious little room for improvement. The only thing that could open new vistas for Peter Karbe would be a new lens mount. Larger, to allow more spectacular designs, and electronic coupling, to allow digital correction. In that field, we have not even seen the begining and the possibilities are endless. So the M10 may well be designed around a new mount with a larger size and an electronic interface -and a new name!, making the M9 the apex of the M series. Of course, Leica being Leica, there would be an adapter for the old M mount. It would make all speculation about adding extra " features" to the M9 rather pointless.

Maybe. But I'd argue that designing a complete new line would be a huge investment (and risk) for a company such as Leica. Don't forget they are still rolling out the S2, and that Leica is probably just starting to reap, with the M9, the financial rewards of their rather painful transition to digital.

IMO, there's still some way to go before we see the last M...

[Rick]

Jappv - New lens mount and what it would make possible is fine and so is Leica optics in another line.

 

But, all of these fantastic technological features, like the stuff that makes cameras sit on the counter and swivel back on forth and recognize faces and then wait and shoot when it detects a smile is fantastic, but the sole purpose is for selling cameras to the masses or to professionals. Neither, do I aspire to be. And, neither seem to have the same needs as me.

 

Leica, please hear us and keep it all out of our M camera. I don't want anything except the best optics and the best image quality. I am all for Leica improving the quality of either. Anything additional is a subtraction from the concept.

 

The camera gets out of your way because it is simple. Be careful what you add because, it may be good for the professional who has to deliver results to a client or a bride, but it will ultimately subtract from the creative process of the artist.

[adan]

I expect at least one more "M" body - same mount and lenses, some adoption of S2 technology (Maestro processor), probably at least one new iteration of the sensor (6-micron S2 pixels). My guess would be photokina 2012. Changes significant enough to warrant the M10 name.

 

Edit - I think there will always be a classic M camera in Leica's stable so long as they sell. It will eventually stabilize at some "we can't go any further without a complete change of concept" point - but I have no idea if that will be version 10, or 11 or 12 or....

 

I expect there will be an M9.2 with the fancier cosmetics (black/silver chrome, Sapphire LCD, price increase to match) in the meantime.

 

I think Peter Karbe can be kept happily busy producing:

 

21 f/3.8 Elmar-M ASPH

28 'lux as mentioned

75 f/1.4 APO-Summilux-M-ASPH

90 f/2.8 APO-Elmarit-M-ASPH (the Summarit 90, while decent, is the one Summarit that was a step backward from its predessor optically)

135 f/3.4 APO-Telyt-RF-ASPH (goggled version, probably not an optical change unless an FE can add anything)

 

450 or 480mm f/5.6 APO-Telyt-S (the "Doug Herr Special")

At least one other S lens not previously announced

 

(In passing, I suspect the decade-old 21 and 24 Elmarits might - repeat, might - disappear, with the Elmars and Summiluxes as very fast and and big and pricey, or slow but very good and relatively cheap and small, alternatives - all designed with digital imaging in mind (but perfectly usable on film!!).

 

In effect, this would amount to a "slow-motion" replacement of the M wideangles as of 2001 with more digitally friendly designs - something that was always suggested as a way of working around the inherent problems of classic RF wideangles with digital.

 

I do expect an expansion of the X system to include both a fixed zoom (X2) version and an X3 version with its own interchangeable mount and lens line. Possibly as soon as PK 2010, at least in outline.

 

My crystal ball is cloudy as to whether that will also serve as the "R solution" and "discount M" - with or without a sensor closer to 24 x 36 - or whether those will continue to lurk as additional camera possibilities. Which also means I can't guess at what dedicated focal lengths might be needed for the X3 - presumably at least 2 zooms and 3 primes to start with.

[giordano]

Leica, please hear us and keep it all out of our M camera. I don't want anything except the best optics and the best image quality. I am all for Leica improving the quality of either. Anything additional is a subtraction from the concept.

 

Except (I'm guessing here) the multi-frame viewfinder, coupled rangefinder, built-in exposure meter etc.

[wlaidlaw]

There are dozens of little improvements that could be done on an M9 to justify producing an M10, with the same mount and lens range. A lot of them have been mentioned above.

 

My top ten, not in any particular order would be:

 

1) Some method of enabling those with less than perfect eyesight i.e. me, to focus more accurately in low light (not suggesting AF which I don't like).

2) A more robust rangefinder, which stays in adjustment.

3) A more accurate rangefinder - maybe a longer baseline.

4) Lower noise at high ISO settings - more important to me than more pixels

5) Better sealing, so that your heart is not in your mouth when using an M9 in rain.

6) Faster processing of RAW

7) Get rid of the bottom plate and have a more robust tripod mount

8) Better LCD - OLED?

9) More positive click stops for Power/mode selector switch.

10) Dedicated EV button rather than current half push and dial rotate, on which I often end up taking a picture. I know I can set to just dial rotate but then it is too easy to inadvertently change EV.

 

Wilson

[Steve Ash]

What about a digital MF rangefinder?Could be build using S2 technolgy. Actually I suggested S. Daniel to do so at LUF meeting but he was laughing at me.

Regards

Steve

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[luigi bertolotti]

A very complex issue : I tend to agree that the "next M" maybe can be a very different design, comparable to the LTM-BM jump, but... a very risky move :

- Would it be a SUBSTITUTION of the present M line, they MUST do something that really appeals the M users community, to convince them to switch and, probably, build in due time a completely new lens set. Times and market are very different from the '50s... they are a niche player with a very faithful (and little) customers base... if they "flop" with the new camera, they put at risk the bigger part of their customers.... and in digital age is difficult to do the way they did in the '70s with the comeback they did after the ill fated M5.

- Would it be a NEW line, but positioned as "top" like the M9 (i.e., "true Leica", costly etc...), and maintaining M9 as a "alive" product with some minor update... they must find ways to attract a NEW set of customers... probably, part of M users would switch, or "add", but is unuseful to have 2 product lines if, given 100 your customer set, you split it into two sets of 40 and 60... you must design something that attracts at least 50 more customers (and the S2 is towards this).

- We must remember always that the most important component in a digital camera (the sensor) is outside the control of Leica : generally speaking, I think the next cameras they will make will depend a lot on the evolutions we will see in the sensor technology... in the sense that the problem is "which kind of camera fits well the sensor's capabilities ?"; in this perspective, I think that can be they will continue to maintain the M line "as is" with development steps tied simply to new sensors and electronics in general, with possible impact on the classic rangefinder mechanism but no big impact in the global design of the M line.

 

When I make "philosphizing"... ... I continue to think of EVF... a technology which can only improve dramatically...imagine a M with no RF... usual size... and a EVF with frames AND a dedicated small lens (phone-camera style...located into the top, just above the taking lens) with 3-4 focal settings (W-N-T or UW-W-N-T or W-N-T-LT), "coupled" to the taking lens focusing.....

[Rick]

At least Steven Daniel has a sense of humor.

[LuxBob]

Maybe. But I'd argue that designing a complete new line would be a huge investment (and risk) for a company such as Leica. Don't forget they are still rolling out the S2, and that Leica is probably just starting to reap, with the M9, the financial rewards of their rather painful transition to digital.

IMO, there's still some way to go before we see the last M...

 

Agreed.

Leica's job now is to make money in terms of sustained profit year after year. The way you make profit is to repackage existing products and call them new but you only do this when you have milked the life out of existing product lines. They have a long way to go before doing that; the M9 has plenty of sales miles left in it while the X1 is just getting into its stride. The way not to make money is to complicate your production line with new and competing technologies. Everyone at Leica would be close to certifiable if they produced yet another basic lens fitting.

Maybe they would want to produce an M10 with an S2 fitting eventually but for goodness sake not yet. I want the company to survive so please do none of this Leica. If anybody in the Engineering department suggest this send them to Kiev for a few years to learn how to make high quality Jupiter lenses with an M mount.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[dpattinson]

I think there's quite a bit of room for further M models without varying the design too much. Leica are in a way blessed by the realities of the digital market in that they can now release a new M model every 2-3 years and people will buy it because there will be significant improvements available. That turnover will allow them to fund more innovation and hopefully we will all benefit from better and better cameras.

 

Body:

1. Better sensor is obvious, sensors are improving all the time;
   
2. Dual SD slots - forget about card corruption disasters
   
3. Better rear screen
   
4. Live view / video (not that I want it, but some people would buy)
   
5. Faster writing to card and jpeg processing
   
6. Weather sealing (with some new sealed lenses but fits all old lenses)
   

 

I'd spring for a weather sealed M10 and a matching weather sealed 50lux