The M10 or a new camera line? [Merged]

[bill]

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At the moment I am stongly considering the "ignore all" option, has that been implemented yet? Then I can dwell in isolation:D

 

Sadly not, but there are already those who have implemented the "leave reality at the door" option

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[SJP]

Sadly not, but there are already those who have implemented the "leave reality at the door" option

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

reminded me of "YOU THAT ENTER HERE ABANDON HOPE"

 

That was an interesting series.

[adan]

I would add one other note - IF this turns out to be real.

 

If it can accept M and R lenses, presumably it would therefore be able to accept ANY SLR lens, in terms of back-focus, with an appropriate adapter. If the actual native lens mount on the body is proprietary to Leica, I hope they will allow the licensing of that mount for Novoflex or other third parties to make adapters for orphaned SLR lenses - e.g. Canon FD, Olympus OM, Topcon, Miranda, etc. Especially if it is a full-frame sensor (!!)

 

I realize that Leica's primary goal would be to sell LEICA lenses - but it would be a rather cool tip of the hat to the 35mm industry Leica spawned to provided for resurrecting some of those other lens lines as well.

 

It would, of course, be possible to buy a Leica-made M-to-"mystery-mount" adapter as an intermediary and then get an SLR-to-M adapter (like the ones Cameraquest sells) as a workaround for some mounts.

 

But there are some rather cool lenses out there with no way right now to be used to their fullest, uncropped, manually-focused potential: Oly 21 f/2, Canon 17 f/4 or original 24 f/1.4 FD or 85 1.2 FD, etc. - or some of the "mirror-up" SLR lenses like a Nikkor 21 f/4 or the original Nikkor circular fisheyes or a Leicaflex 21 f/3.4 SA.

[stunsworth]

If it can accept M and R lenses, presumably it would therefore be able to accept ANY SLR lens, in terms of back-focus, with an appropriate adapter.

 

In terms of infinity focussing yes, but given the nature of many modern lenses there'd be absolutely no control over aperture, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

[40mm f/2]

With which company is Leica collaborating (they will at least need the parts like CMOS sensors from someone)? Leica stated they are not interested in m4/3, APS-C EVILs are coming from Samsung and Sony. No FF evil yet

[stunsworth]

With which company is Leica collaborating...

 

That makes it sound as if someone knows some facts. They don't. This entire thread is rumour and speculation - and could turn out to be totally unfounded.

[adan]

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Steve - yes, but I was referring to orphaned lenses. Please re-read my post.

 

Sure. A Canon EOS or Sony/Maxxum or Nikon G lens with no aperture ring would not be an appropriate candidate for adapting to this hypothetical rumored body, but they aren't "orphaned" - you can buy an EOS or Sony or Nikon FF body today to use those lenses.

 

There is no full-frame camera available that will take Canon FD (the old manual-focus line) lenses - not even a Canon EOS. Think of this as a giant Panolympus - anything that can be adapted to and used fully on micro-4/3rds it should be possible to adapt to this - but (maybe) without the 2x crop factor.

 

40mm f/2 - well, it IS only a rumor But presumably the same people from whom they get the X1's CMOS sensor?

[rosuna]

With which company is Leica collaborating (they will at least need the parts like CMOS sensors from someone)? Leica stated they are not interested in m4/3, APS-C EVILs are coming from Samsung and Sony. No FF evil yet

 

Kodak and Jenoptics are partners of Leica.

 

The X1 has an Asian subcontractor, for the sensor and electronics...

 

If you think on a partner (like Panasonic and Olympus are partners in the micro 4/3 system), then, I don't know...

[mjh]

With which company is Leica collaborating (they will at least need the parts like CMOS sensors from someone)?

Since we are in fairytale world, everything is possible, but given that the CMOS sensor of the X1 is made by Sony, that would be a logical choice. Apart from the fact that its’s pretty much Hobson’s choice anyway as Sony is the only vendor offering FF CMOS sensors.

[lct]

...No FF evil yet

Would be much surprising if Leica or PanaLeica launch an FF EVIL this year. APS sounds more credible if any.

[jankap]

A new Leica camera line? Shall we forget Canon, Nikon, etc. ? Leica wants to sell new produced lenses, I suppose.

Steve states somewhere, that the pancake 1,7 is such an outraging product.

A new line with interchangable lenses means a new interface. To design lenses cheaper and correct them in the camera would be an idea for a new interface. Suppose a lens carries its weaknesses (its testdata) with it. This would allow to construct a camera without a database of lensdata. The camera would read the lensdata (the testdata) of the particular lens used and correct the pictures accordingly.

Would this combination of optics and programming lead to a new optimum of picture quality and price ticket? This would interest me.

Jan

[dickgrafixstop]

M10 enhancements? crystal glass over the display? brighter frame lines for 135 and others, or modification to include 24mm? chrome body? black dot instead of red? There may be

room to up the sensor capacity and not induce excessive noise. There may be "designer" options if you're into ostrich or orange or........certainly debate points for those of us on the Leica forum, but a lot like putting perfume on a pig, it isn't going to help at the picnic. It would seem what Leica needs now is an additional revenue generator, a solution where the profits go to Leica and not to the used market. Also a broader customer base, NEW users, not some of us older folks who are set in our expectations and our habits. Something that could leverage the reputation for excellence and quality, hold the higher retail ground and match expectations of a whole new set of consumers.

EVO is a start - solves rangefinder limitations and resolutions are improving quickly. Interchangeable and/or zoom lenses - this new audience is active, has children and are generally willing to pay for quality. Portability, (a historical Leica strength) Performance,

(needs to be able to perform at soccer games, kid's plays and pizza parties, camping trips and travel), Personality (easy to use, dependable operation with long battery life, and

distinctive appearance) are the keys to the new market.

Personally I'd like to see a complete new effort. Start with the X1 sized body, give it an

interchangeable mount, a minimum 12mp sensor (APS), and a family of lenses (24-50-90) and throw in an optional 35-70 zoom choice. Make it in traditional Leica silver/black and price it where the whole system comes in less than the price of an M body.

I don't know all the physics, but it would seem to me you should be able to take the M

mount specs into a computer program, re-do it at some percentage and have the majority of the design work figuring which percentage to use. The same could be done with the

summarit lens and have a dynamite solution quickly with minimum engineering and development costs. The quality difference would keep us old farts with the luxes and the crons so it wouldn't cannibalize those sales, would let us grouse about the "new Leica" and sales would generate all net new income so Leica could subsidize it's venture with the S. Win, win, Win!

[ho_co]

... Think of this as a giant Panolympus ...

Better, digital Alpa.

 

Has to be full frame IMO. Leica said they're not going Micro Four Thirds. X1 seems to me more like a placeholder.

 

I think the DMR was the only APS-C reflex Leica will show. New R-compatible camera would almost certainly have to be full-frame. Argument against DMR that I heard from a number of owners of a lot of R equipment was: "For that much money I can buy a 5D and an adapter to use my R lenses."

 

I think the same would hold here: If it's going to have a Leica price, it better be full-frame.

 

M8 is gone. There won't be another interchangeable-lens APS-C product.

 

My 2¢ worth.

[ho_co]

... like putting perfume on a pig...

 

Hmm. Lipstick worked for... let's see, who was it, now...

[jaapv]

M10 enhancements? crystal glass over the display? brighter frame lines for 135 and others, or modification to include 24mm? chrome body? black dot instead of red? There may be

room to up the sensor capacity and not induce excessive noise. There may be "designer" options if you're into ostrich or orange or........certainly debate points for those of us on the Leica forum, but a lot like putting perfume on a pig, it isn't going to help at the picnic. It would seem what Leica needs now is an additional revenue generator, a solution where the profits go to Leica and not to the used market. Also a broader customer base, NEW users, not some of us older folks who are set in our expectations and our habits. Something that could leverage the reputation for excellence and quality, hold the higher retail ground and match expectations of a whole new set of consumers.

EVO is a start - solves rangefinder limitations and resolutions are improving quickly. Interchangeable and/or zoom lenses - this new audience is active, has children and are generally willing to pay for quality. Portability, (a historical Leica strength) Performance,

(needs to be able to perform at soccer games, kid's plays and pizza parties, camping trips and travel), Personality (easy to use, dependable operation with long battery life, and

distinctive appearance) are the keys to the new market.

Personally I'd like to see a complete new effort. Start with the X1 sized body, give it an

interchangeable mount, a minimum 12mp sensor (APS), and a family of lenses (24-50-90) and throw in an optional 35-70 zoom choice. Make it in traditional Leica silver/black and price it where the whole system comes in less than the price of an M body.

I don't know all the physics, but it would seem to me you should be able to take the M

mount specs into a computer program, re-do it at some percentage and have the majority of the design work figuring which percentage to use. The same could be done with the

summarit lens and have a dynamite solution quickly with minimum engineering and development costs. The quality difference would keep us old farts with the luxes and the crons so it wouldn't cannibalize those sales, would let us grouse about the "new Leica" and sales would generate all net new income so Leica could subsidize it's venture with the S. Win, win, Win!

Seems to me like you are describing a Sony with Zeiss lenses - nothing new there, not a market a small company like Leica can muscle into...

[georg]

This rumor is floating around since the official end of the R10-development, it's the only logical consequence of Leica's statements regarding the introduction of a 24x36mm-solution besides the M9 which is not an DSLR.

 

- I think we can tell for sure that it will get a new lens-mount, the flange-distance of the R-mount is to large, the diameter and communication of the M-mount is too limited.

The question is: will M-lenses be adaptable as well (flange distance >>28mm) - Leica would be stupid to miss this opportunity since they already have proven that FF-digitals work with M-lenses as well as R-designs (e.g. the 90AA) ?

 

- The EVF. Current offerings are nice toys but not a serious replacement for a good SLR-viewfinder. We need hi-res, large displays with high-quality oculars - these are currently introduced in the professional video-market. Has anybody of you seen the ARRI EVF? Impressive, but it's huge, has cooling fins for it's LEDs and belongs to a 50k$-cam...

 

- The Sensor. NEVER buy a crucial component from a direct opponent! It's simple, cheap, easy and deadly, once the "supplier" finds out that they can make much more money selling it with their own name... Sensor-manufacturers with stitching-abilities (to reach 24x36mm) are rare but DALSA would be a viable option which is not used by other "consumer"-brands. So they have a unique solution with unique capabilities to justify higher costs and a partner which needs the success of Leica (Ithey're not larger than Leica) much more than Canon (do they sell their technology anway?) or Sony... Samsung/ Panasonic can't stitch and has shown no interest, I don't think we will see a 4k$-Panaleica...

 

But what we don't need is a compromise which "only" costs 4k$ and therefore compromises build-quality and technology by sharing it with a 2k$-Sony but has a red dot...

 

The moving sensor idea makes no sense, because it increases body-size and more important: it doesn't work well with modern lens designs.

[dpattinson]

well, fwiw - the 'rumours' i heard from a rep were:

 

FF AF DSLR with new lenses, no mention of EVIL and actually I doubt it would be. Specific mention of re-use of S2 tech. R lenses mounted but no AF - maybe via adapter.

 

Variant M9 body, no real specifics - but a back-to-the-drawing-board redesign was implied. Could very well be the EVIL camera but that would imply new sensor. Didn't ask about AF, but it does make sense that if it's FF the M lenses could be mounted with adapter and native AF lenses produced (or just use the same ones as made for the FF DSLR I guess.)

[batmax]

I see al lot of movement around my question and this is positive.... I see people that are pro

for an evil camera from leica and I also see people that don't like that the m10 will be an evil camera.

May be leica will do both in order to cover better the market and increase the sell of cameras.

Personally I think that we can't stop the progress.... And If an evil camera will come up as I have see in the rumors is welcome ...We just have the opportunity to choose the best tool to do our kind of photography... I also think that the progress will give us more possibility to capture the decisive moment...

 

Let's see...

[BRJR]

According to the rumor at the link below, possibly yes; but, what are the chances that it's likely?

 

Rumor: Leica EVIL camera for Photokina | Leica News & Rumors

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jerry_R]

Friend of my trusted colleague - already had this new body in hands at Solms.

It uses different than "M" lenses. In few months, we will know more.

Don't ask me for more now.

 

For many - dreams come true!