Name this car....

[mikemgb]

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As a follow up for the last riddle here´s my new car. (we should run that parallel to your Beetle, ok?)

 

Electric car?

[Rona!d]

Hm that radio doesn't look original to me...

 

 

Well, barn find in 1970! Anything could have been installed inbetween ;-) But that 3rd party radio looks pretty old, with tubes instead of transistors. Maybe it´s not even VHF.

[Rona!d]

Electric car?

 

RIGHT! Now please name the model, maker and year!

[George Furst]

This is not an electric car. It is a standard Beetle with mechanical brakes and a 30hp engine. Year of manufacture is January 1951 and was the 231st VW imported into the US I was told at the time. I will show a few more pictures of its condition at the time. As a standard it had no glove box doors and no chrome on the side or front hood. Only one imported too the us as mechanical brakes were not allowed. They operated via cables that went up to the front of a long post with four places for the cables to attach. Hand brake also attached to this pole. interesting car. Car, of course, had a split rear window and 16 inch tires.

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Edited March 12, 2017 by George Furst

[Rona!d]

George, we had two parrelel car riddles running. MY picture shows an electric car. And the guys can go on with it. Curious if somebody finds the model and maker. One more info: German made.

 

To your beetle: From the first shot you´ve posted, I have identified all specs correctly in my answer (pre-twin "Brezel" = splitwindow, pre 52/53, so 1951 mentioned as possible, standard model, three spoke steearing wheel, "mp/h" odo). All other options I´ve mentioned were also possible from your dashbord snapshot.

 

Interesting that they imported a poor Standard to the US. So it went there as "new"? Most were "Export" versions with Chrome, twin spoke steering wheel, covered glovebox, hydraulic brakes etc.) Maybe an US soldier who was in Europe brought this into the US as his private souvenir?

 

You´ve mentioned 30 hp, that isn´t the correct engine for a 1951 model. I think this had been replaced after 1954. Original engine for a 1951 car should be the 24,5 hp because they´ve introduced the 30 hp much later, in the beginning of 1954. It has the enlarged swept volume of 1192 cubic centimeter, the correct engine for 1951 had 1131 cubic centimeter. As mentioned, possibly replaced after 1954.

[George Furst]

It´s a pre-twin model "Brezel", so before 1952/53 because of the single side window of the door. It´s a Standard model because of the three stroke steering wheel. It´s NOT a prewar prototype/preserial model because the strokes were thicker in those.

 

I´d say it´s between 1947 and 1950, maybe even 1951. Not sure if one could identify the year more accurate from the details you´ve showed.

 

You said "special". Well, thought about a CCG Beetle, but not an early one (pre- 1947) because I miss the engraved "VW"-logo in the dash (which the pre-war/war cars, very early postwar cars had).

 

The odo shows mp/h, not km/h, because there is a "40" at 6 o´clock, not a "60" like the km/h-odos show. So could this also be a very early non-German beetle, maybe Ireland (Dublin) where they´ve built it since 1950 or South Africa (Uintenhage since 1951).

You are so right! I am amazed at your knowledge related to the details. This car was a very early January 1951 manufactured Beetle and since it was a standard model, it did not contain the vent above the heater outlets on the floor adjacent to your knees. These vents were sometimes called crotch coolers for obvious reasons. I do not know the history of the car but assume that a returning serviceman brought it into the states on return from duty in Germany. There was even the port for the hand crank to start the car. Also the door windows were one piece without the vent window (but I am not sure that even the deluxe model had vent windows that early). The color was a very dark blue, almost black. It looked black in the shade and only in the direct sun could you see that it was really a deep blue. Again I am impressed with you ability to nail this one.

[George Furst]

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George, we had two parrelel car riddles running. MY picture shows an electric car. And the guys can go on with it. Curious if somebody finds the model and maker. One more info: German made.

 

To your beetle: From the first shot you´ve posted, I have identified all specs correctly in my answer (pre-twin "Brezel" = splitwindow, pre 52/53, so 1951 mentioned as possible, standard model, three spoke steearing wheel, "mp/h" odo). All other options I´ve mentioned were also possible from your dashbord snapshot.

 

Interesting that they imported a poor Standard to the US. So it went there as "new"? Most were "Export" versions with Chrome, twin spoke steering wheel, covered glovebox, hydraulic brakes etc.) Maybe an US soldier who was in Europe brought this into the US as his private souvenir?

 

 

 

You´ve mentioned 30 hp, that isn´t the correct engine for a 1951 model. I think this had been replaced after 1954. Original engine for a 1951 car should be the 24,5 hp because they´ve introduced the 30 hp much later, in the beginning of 1954. It has the enlarged swept volume of 1192 cubic centimeter, the correct engine for 1951 had 1131 cubic centimeter. As mentioned, possibly replaced after 1954.

As for the engine, it was the original engine as I had checked the serial numbers. So I am wrong and it is the lower horsepower engine. The transmission was a crash box with no synchromesh in any gear and it really had a wine. That combined with the minimal insulation between the passengers and the engine, the car was really noisy. The standard was really a stripped down model, I would say basic transportation.

 

I drove a '65 beetle in Alaska when I was doing graduate work on volcanology for the MS. In the winter the cooling for the engine had to be blocked as otherwise the engine never warmed up. When it went below minus 20 you gave up driving as the steering gear froze up. I had a battery blanket and electric oil heater, other wise it was very difficult to start the car. Otherwise it was a great car for Alaska as it was light and did not sink so far into the muskeg in the summer. I remember I would put chains on the car when near small streams and it went like a Mississippi paddle wheeler across the stream. I will include a photo of the car with a raft that I used to get to some of the outcrops of basalts I was mapping.

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[wlaidlaw]

Ronald, 

 

Could your one be a Lloyd EL 1500? 

 

Wilson

[Rona!d]

Wilson, not a Lloyd EL 1500 (those are an interesting idea of you). Maybe a bit but not much smaller frame. Think about gas getting rare in WWII times, that´s one reason why it was electric. I´ll post more snaps this evening and see which infos I can add as a help.

[Rona!d]

George, what an interesting and funny photo of your 1965 beetle. I sometimes put classic folding kayaks (wood frame with skin) on one of my beetles. 3 in the stable, one of them is close to yours, a fully restored early pearlwhite 1964 Export which I know since I was 4 years old. Too bad I don´t drive it much since the kids came, no safety belts inside. Your 1965 was also special year, only that had the special door grips and red and white heating levers. I once restored a 1965 platform with these special heater levers and it found a very happy new owner (and I was happy as well because it was only original on a 1965 model).

 

Grew up in the mountains and drove beetles all the time, agree about poor heating but they are great on snow if you have snow chains on bord. Even towed a Suzuki LJ 4x4 which got stuck, haha. Interesting mix of wheels you have put on yours!

 

The knee vents you have mentioned as "crotch coolers" are called "Rheumaklappen" in German (self explaining I think). Those were only on the "1952" model, which means between fall 1951 and fall 1952. VW switched such details after the long summer holidays when they could refit the assembly lines and didn´t have them to stop extra for that job. Those vents were a nightmare for production and customers. Even the cabrio had them, my grandfather had a nice 1952 brown twintone rental Cabriolet for his hotel guests in the early 1950s before he offered his private Mercedes 220 Cabrios for that purpose.

 

Not far away from us lives private owned beetle  #3806, which means the 6th of the 1938 prototypes. Only three exists of this series and it´s fully restored with matching numbers. Here a German link with some snaps. It has a lot of VERY RARE friends in the same stable. There´s a book about this beetle called "The first Brezelkäfer".

[Rona!d]

Instead of more snaps which won´t help as good as the following helping details:

 

The maker of this electric vehicle (made in 1943) has manufactured many different vehicles. From trucks to locomotives (steam, electric and Diesel), from ships to cog railways, mine railways, trams even special bridges. They had a very good reputation in most of these fields and delivered world wide. They produced from the mid 1800s to the late 1960s and were later sold and split up amoung a famous car maker and a famous maker of electric industrial vehicles. The questioned vehicle was made to deliver bread.

 

side note: Wilson mentioned an electric Lloyd delivery vehicle. The questioned maker produced a common "bigger" vehicle for postal services along with Lloyd and another company but all these companies had nothing in common except the mentioned postal service vehicle (which is NOT the vehicle we are looking for here). This vehicle -although made in 1943- was in service until the 1970s!

 

I think now you should find the maker and model quickly.

[Rona!d]

top view

 

 

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[Rona!d]

engine

 

 

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[wlaidlaw]

Given the information I suspect the manufacturer may be Siemens and Halske but information on their older electric vehicles is close to non-existent. 

 

Wilson

[Rona!d]

None of them. Check which company had been split up and sold to Daimler Benz and Still. It was based close to the river Neckar.

[Rona!d]

OK, let´s solve the riddle. ME EL 3001.

 

It´s an electric delivery vehicle made by Maschinenfabrik Esslingen AG (ME) in 1943. Here you can find a full side view of the second existing sister model which looks like my car shown here.

 

ME was a big and old company which had a very wide product range from ships to locomotives. Their electric vehicles were mainly for gov services like postal transportation etc.

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[Rona!d]

Maybe you guys can tell me more about this car.

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[wlaidlaw]

Ronald, 

 

It looks like you have a bit of re-wiring to do on your electric van. Does it use lead acid or nickel iron batteries? The fork lift in my father's company used Ni-Fe cells. You had to be sure to put the control thermocouple into the electrolyte when charging or the cells would start boiling off hydrogen, which could get exciting. 

 

I think your mystery car is a twin engine 2CV. 

 

Wilson

[Rona!d]

Wilson, it used lead acid batteries which were charged over night (5-6 hrs). 11 hp, 28 km/h, about 50-60 km range. They only drove on side streets by own power, on main streets they put it behind a tram (during war times). The vehicle belonged to Wittler Brotfabrik, which was the largest bred bakery in whole Europe in the early 1920s.

 

I found this vehicle in the collection of "Deutsches Technikmuseum" in Berlin. Seems it needs some rewiring, not roadworthy. While doing my background research I found out that a second EL 3001 (looking like a clone!) is living just 18 minutes from my house and it´s in much better condition, it´s driving. That´s the car in the link above.

 

And now to the other car, yes it´s a twin engine 2CV (Sahara). Fully restored, long time specialist and collectors car, said to be one of the best, was in use for a big french energy company in his prior life and sold last year for > 100.000,-€. At these prices, I´m still a bit unhappy that I have never bought the one somebody offered to me in the early 1990s.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[wlaidlaw]

I love the pragmatic French solution to filling the under each front seat petrol tanks, a hole in the doors. I had a Land Rover Mk.2 Aeroportable ex-military vehicle many years ago. It also had two petrol tanks under the front seats, albeit rather larger at 70 litres each. You had to remove the front seat cushions and the tank covers to fill those up.

 

When I first got my Yamaha Raptor 700R quad bike in France, I went mountaineering with it and got to the top of one of the var mountains nearby. I was feeling quite proud of my achievement, when up the other side chugged a 2CV Safari with two elderly people and their dog in it. That is the only one I have ever seen. I had a chat with them and the driver said that very occasionally, the engines got into different gears or only one went into gear while the other stayed in neutral. I wonder if they knew how much money it is worth. There was a rally version for sale a year or so ago in France with two GSA flat four engines in it. 

 

I will look for another photo later today.

 

Wilson