Low cost M digital entry level camera - How to implement?

[earleygallery]

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Frank,

 

Why bother to keep polluting this forum with your ideas for turning around Leica?

 

Surely you would be better off seeking a meeting the the Leica board to present your ideas to them directly?

[lct]

I guess his training is not yet over. He's playing with some of us as sparing partners before the meeting takes place.

[redbaron]

Now I'm intrigued why you actually bought Leica gear, Frank.

 

If Leica is not "profitable, growing, secure, client driven and centric, quality conscious" nor "communicative" why would you even consider buying its products?

[earleygallery]

Now I'm intrigued why you actually bought Leica gear, Frank.

 

If Leica is not "profitable, growing, secure, client driven and centric, quality conscious" nor "communicative" why would you even consider buying its products?

 

Well to be fair we are all allowed to make mistakes. I just don't get why Frank seems to deny making a mistake in buying a Leica, wants to persist trying to make Leica into something it's not, bangs on about his problems in trying to buy a lens hood etc., when he can go back to the camera shop and trade in for a Canon or Nikon or other camera.

[Promethus]

This could be irrelevant.

 

People around often remark and ask why I didn't get a LX3 instead of Dlux4.

 

Why am I even considering some of older 35mm Ms or M8, M9 over Canon 5D MkII etc?

 

Why, I refuse to use 3rd parties products and the only 3rd party case I'll consider is a Luigi's?

[thrid]

On the contrary, the reality is that the CL almost drove Leica out of business - and DID drive it out of the rangefinder business completely for a couple of years (1975-77), until the Canadian factory (which made almost all the RF lenses and was facing 50%+ layoffs) came up with the plan to build the M4-2 in Canada (to save their own "Canadian bacon", so to speak).

 

Once the M4-2 and later M4-P proved that the M-line, stripped back to the barest essentials (no meter, no battery, no self-timer, no black paint, very little silver chrome) and with no internal competition cannibalizing sales, was still viable, production was moved back to Germany with the M6.

 

That old red herring again...

 

Leica was almost killed by the Nikon F, which was significantly cheaper and more flexible. The M5 was introduced at a time when the whole industry was shifting away from the RF concept and moving to the SLR in droves. The world market was flooded with high quality SLR bodies coming from Japan. Basically Leica was caught with their pants down and the SL was no match for the Nikon, except for optics.

 

Furthermore, we are talking about an event that happened at least 30 years ago. The market and world is a very, very different place today. Aside from Leica name one single camera company that does not have a tiered product line with entry, mid and highend models.

 

The memory of the CL experience is probably the number-one factor in Leica NOT ever having built an "entry-level" M body again. As numerous CEO's including Dr. K. have said - "The entry-level into the M system is a pre-owned camera."

 

Judging by the interview with S. Daniels it's more along the line of sheer snobbery. Leica sees itself as a luxury brand, like Gucci and Hermes, catering to the country club crowd.

 

 

The only real "entry-level" M body with much success was the M2, which reduced the cost by leaving out the self-timer and simplifying the frame-counter mechanism (and the rewind switch, in its first form) - and also ADDED the feature of a built-in 35mm viewfinder (which today makes them just about as valuable for practical users as the "high-end" M3).

 

Leica had entry level models as far back as the early LTM days.

 

On the original question:

 

I think if you ask Dr. Kaufmann, he will tell you up front that part of his business plan is retaining jobs in Europe and Germany. Any plan that involves viewing workers as interchangeable cogs "and we can get cheaper ones in the Far East" is not why he set out to rescue Leica with his millions in investment.

 

There may be certain parts, such as the R8/R9/M8/M9 electronic shutter or the sensors, that are sourced to the Far East, or to Kodak in the US, because no european company still makes such an item.

 

We've heard the rumors that Leica is experimenting with simpler cameras that will take M (and R) lenses. Presumably Leica is getting some input from Panasonic, per their partnership, on using technology similar to the GF/GH-1. I suspect the outcome of that will be something more like an M-mount X1 than a de-rated M9 or M8. Major assembly in Solms, sub-assembly and parts from elsewhere (but Europe if possible).

 

 

Leica could easily build a lower cost camera right here in Europe. They already have a plant in Portugal, which has much lower costs than Germany. It's more an issue of will.

[thrid]

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Frank,

 

Why bother to keep polluting this forum with your ideas for turning around Leica?

 

Surely you would be better off seeking a meeting the the Leica board to present your ideas to them directly?

 

For starters you could ignore this thread, if you are not interested in it.

 

Or you could start your own forum and then censor it as you please.

[bill]

For starters you could ignore this thread, if you are not interested in it.

 

Or you could start your own forum and then censor it as you please.

 

...and let the trolls win? I think not.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[earleygallery]

For starters you could ignore this thread, if you are not interested in it.

 

Or you could start your own forum and then censor it as you please.

 

Thank you for you suggestions. Well clearly I'm interested to see what people have to say otherwise I wouldn't read the forum.

 

I'm hardly suggesting censorship, Frank has made his opinions quite clear but keeps banging the same drum, louder and louder. The point is none of us can make the changes he's suggesting, so he'd be much better off seeking a meeting with the Leica board, and putting his suggestions to the decision makers.

 

How is that censorship? Surely it's commonsense?

[thrid]

Low cost M

 

- Metal / Plastic hybrid body made in Portugal, assembled in Germany or Portugal.

- Simplified RF unit

- Simplified shutter (1/2000th max)

- M-mount

- 12MP APS-C sensor from Sony (x1.6).

- A small line up of cheaper MF lenses that cover up to APS-H (x1.33). Equivalents to f2 - 28/35/50/90

- $3000-3500 for body

- $1000 for lenses

 

This would give plenty of differentiation to the high end full frame M9, so it would not cannibalize sales.

 

Sooner or later someone like Cosina is going to build this camera and once again Leica will be caught off guard. There is little doubt that this camera would outsell the M9, but then again Nikon sells a lot more D300 bodies than D3. But they sure would make money on it and it would make them a more stable company.

 

Personally I think it will be a cold day in hell before we see this camera. Why?

 

Leica-Chef: "Die Leidensfähigkeit unserer Kunden ist hoch" - Nachrichten Webwelt - WELT ONLINE

 

Welt Online: Herr Spiller, eines Ihrer neuen Produkte, die Leica M9, kostet 5500 Euro. Wer gibt so viel Geld für einen Fotoapparat aus?

 

Translation:

"Mr Spiller, one of your new products, the Leica M9, costs 5500 Euro. Who spends that much money on a camera?"

 

Rudolf Spiller: Da gibt es zunächst die Sammler, die jedes M-Modell kaufen, das wir auf den Markt bringen. Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können.

 

Translation:

"For one thing there are the collectors, who buy every M-model that we bring to market. Then there are technologists who want a full format sensor in a compact package. And there are the brand conscious customers who don't want just any camera, but one with the red dot. They want a high quality camera that is also a status symbol reflecting their ability to afford such an expensive item."

 

I don't think I heard the word 'photographer' or 'professional photographer' mentioned once in his summary of who Leica's customer base is. Instead he described their customers as people who are purchasing a Leica because of the brand name and as a status symbol. Basically Leica thinks of itself as the Gucci of the camera world. But even Gucci doesn't only sell Haute Couture. The bulk of Gucci's income comes from the low and mid range of their product line. The high end material provides a halo effect that is exploited as a marketing tool.

 

This is the same attitude that drove the entire German camera industry in to bankruptcy.

[Promethus]

Irrelevant but I thought you should at least have your comparison right.

 

Gucci is thrash.

 

Leica is like Hermes.

[pop]

Translation:

 

(...)

 

I don't think I heard the word 'photographer' or 'professional photographer' mentioned once in his summary of who Leica's customer base is.

 

See my comment in the parallel thread. While the English translation does not contain the term "Photographer", the German original text does.

 

You don't judge the quality of Leica lenses by the performance of the Jupiter or Industar lenses. You shouldn't judge the content of an interview by a garbled translation.

[jaapv]

 

Leica could easily build a lower cost camera right here in Europe. They already have a plant in Portugal, which has much lower costs than Germany. It's more an issue of will.

:confused:That is where considerable parts of the M9 ARE built, to be able to keep the price down to 5500 Euro.

[thrid]

Irrelevant but I thought you should at least have your comparison right.

 

Gucci is thrash.

 

Leica is like Hermes.

 

All of those brands are trash for the nouveau riche. There may have been something to them in the 1950's and 60's, but it's been down hill ever since.

 

If anyone plans on spending that sort of money on clothes, they should go bespoke. At least it will fit properly.

[thrid]

See my comment in the parallel thread. While the English translation does not contain the term "Photographer", the German original text does.

 

You don't judge the quality of Leica lenses by the performance of the Jupiter or Industar lenses. You shouldn't judge the content of an interview by a garbled translation.

 

I grew up in Germany, was schooled in Germany and have been speaking German for nearly four decades.

As a matter of fact I am sitting in Germany, as I type this. I think I understood the article quite clearly.

 

See the other thread for a more detailed translation.

[pop]

I grew up in Germany, was schooled in Germany and have been speaking German for nearly four decades.

As a matter of fact I am sitting in Germany, as I type this. I think I understood the article quite clearly.

 

See the other thread for a more detailed translation.

 

You wrote "I don't think I heard the word 'photographer' or 'professional photographer' mentioned once". I pointed out that the text you quoted does indeed contain the word "photographer".

 

Your claim was wrong. No amount of fluency will correct that. Hence, the conclusions you draw from the flawed translation are worthless.

[farnz]

... Aside from Leica name one single camera company that does not have a tiered product line with entry, mid and highend models.

...

Well, since you issued the challenge ...

Phase One

Sinar

Leaf Aptus

Hasselblad

Mamiya

Red?

 

Have I missed any?

 

Oh, hold on ...

Holga

Lomo PLC (perhaps no longer trading)

Vivitar

Ordro

Jiamei

Tekxon

Winait

Vivikai

...

None of the latter list have 'highend' models that I could find.

 

Pete.

[pop]

Well, since you issued the challenge ...

Phase One

Sinar

Leaf Aptus

Hasselblad

Mamiya

Red?

 

Have I missed any?

 

 

Why, you ...

 

Where's Alpa?

[Promethus]

All of those brands are trash for the nouveau riche. There may have been something to them in the 1950's and 60's, but it's been down hill ever since.

 

If anyone plans on spending that sort of money on clothes, they should go bespoke. At least it will fit properly.

 

 

Since you are so fixated on it, I think you can find many other things to play.

 

But then again, I guess nothing is really good enough for you.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[farnz]

Why, you ...

 

Where's Alpa?

Oops, sorry, Alpa.

 

Pete.