Pentaxlets the cat out of the bag

[elansprint72]

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You've obviously never held one.

 

I have and it's far superior to the D700. Trust me on this.

 

That Pentax looks like a £400 bottom of the range Canon.

 

Actually, yes; and it's an ergonomic clunker.

 

Agreed; it's an ergonomic clunker.

 

Agreed; it "looks" crap.

 

However; I was speaking about ergonomic design (something I've piddled about with on and off since I worked in ergo-design at Philips in the 1970s). Put the fingers of any primate into the basic grasp position and guess what fills the space?

 

You must borrow my V-Lux some time, there are 17 controls which can be operated without moving your right hand from the grasp position, and goodness knows how many viewfinder menu options these bring up.

Dreadful I know but hey, this is science.

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[buckhorn_cortez]

What I don't get is Leica can only offer these crappy display screens and your choice of covering is plexi or "sapphire." Why not good ol' tempered glass like this new Pentax or some of the dslrs out? Why is there never any practical in between with Leica? (btw the M9 is rapidly becoming my all time favorite camera so jus' wondering not really bashing)

 

Tempered glass has been heat treated to setup compressive stresses on the surface to equalize tensile stresses in the core of the glass. When broken it shatters into fragments instead of shards making it safer for some uses. Tempered glass is more susceptible to scratches as the surface is softer than standard glass unless an additional coating is applied to the glass (which itself is susceptible to scuffing or scratching).

 

As far as hardness (scratch resistance) only diamonds are harder than sapphire. On the Moh's scale, diamond is a 10 and sapphire is rated 9. This means that diamonds are 4x harder than sapphire. Tempered glass, on the other hand, is rated as 5.5 (standard glass is 6), meaning that sapphire is about 8.3 times harder than glass.

 

As for absolute strength - sapphire can be surfaced processed (polished) for strengthening. When sapphire has been treated it has the mechanical strength equivalent of steel. Meaning glass isn't even close in strength.

 

While tempered glass may seem to be a "reasonable" substitute, the only feature it has - when compared to sapphire - is cheaper. It is in no way a substitute or equivalent of sapphire - in fact, tempered glass isn't as good a regular glass.

[wlaidlaw]

Current wholesale prices of .5mm sapphire sheet are around £500 for a 50mm x 50mm sheet, so not a cheap option.

 

Wilson

[Gentleman Villain]

I think Pentax could could really hit a home run with this camera. I wish them the best of luck.

 

Photography is a really big place. There are all kinds of points of view coming from multiple spheres of amateur or hobbyist minds to various levels of commercial or portrait shooters. My POV is mostly smaller scale commercial work and I see the Pentax as an appropriately priced entry level DMF camera. It's something that a student could probably afford payments....I really like that. IT's great for professional start ups. There has been a serious hole in the market for students and professional startups in the past 10 years of digital. I really hope that the Pentax can help to fill that void.

 

The s2 is not threatened. In fact, the more entry level offers in DMF work to Leica's advantage because it brings that many more people into professional formats that could potentially turn into Leica customers at later times. Leica never has been entry level.

[c6gowin]

...The s2 is not threatened. In fact, the more entry level offers in DMF work to Leica's advantage because it brings that many more people into professional formats that could potentially turn into Leica customers at later times. Leica never has been entry level.

 

This is a viewpoint I haven't considered, but it does make sense.

[Gentleman Villain]

This is a viewpoint I haven't considered, but it does make sense.

 

Yes, it just depends on a person's POV in photography.

 

When I first started in photography (in the film days), I bought a used Mamiya because I couldn't afford a Hasselblad. I used a Cambo 4x5 because I couldn't afford a Sinar. Now, after working lots of years, I am in the position to buy high end. But I had to start somewhere. Currently, it is very difficult for somebody that's just starting out to enter middle format. A low cost entry level Pentax will lure a lot of aspiring professionals into middle format and out of 35mm. Then, as they start making more money in the industry, they may start looking to trade up to something better. That's the point when they may become an S2 customer. This can only be good for the future of the S2 from my POV.

 

A good entry level Pentax is exactly what the industry needs right now. I hope it does well and delivers as promised.

[ken_tanaka]

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The s2 is not threatened. In fact, the more entry level offers in DMF work to Leica's advantage because it brings that many more people into professional formats that could potentially turn into Leica customers at later times. Leica never has been entry level.

 

Do you genuinely believe this? What aspects of the Pentax categorize it as "entry level" in your opinion? Of course neither of us has touched this camera yet, but what aspects of its specs suggest that it's not every bit as capable, and even much more so, than the S2?

 

And what niche does the largely nonexistent S2 occupy that is "not threatened"? The S2 has not had any genuine market presence yet. Its reputation is largely fabricated.

 

I really believe that you're greatly underestimating the impact of this Pentax camera.

[Gentleman Villain]

Pentax just killed the S2!

 

There, are you happy now?

[mhoersch]

Pentax just killed the S2!

 

There, are you happy now?

 

If there is anyone at all who can kill the S2 it is Leica themselves with their frequent misjudgments of the market, combined with marketing incompetence, lack of communication, and their usual arrogance.

[UliWer]

If there is anyone at all who can kill the S2 it is Leica themselves with their frequent misjudgments of the market, combined with marketing incompetence, lack of communication, and their usual arrogance.

 

Yes, if they only once would listen to the judgement of the market by Mr mhoersch, his marketing competence, abundance of communication and his unusual arrogance.

[jlancasterd]

Who owns Pentax? How deep a pocket do they have to draw on for development and marketing?

[wlaidlaw]

Who owns Pentax? How deep a pocket do they have to draw on for development and marketing?

 

John,

 

I believe it is Samsung and so therefore, they do have very deep pockets.

 

Wilson

[lct]

Who owns Pentax?...

Hoya i believe.

 

Edit: see http://tinyurl.com/yl9vfhl

[wlaidlaw]

Hoya i believe.

 

Didn't the deal go through then? I thought that Hoya were going to sell the camera division to Samsung but keep all the rest (the only other product I can think of is binoculars but they may make other things).

 

Wilson

[lct]

Not sure Wilson my last info is the merger of 2007. See my link above.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Here's a slightly different perspective on the comparison of MFD choices RE: this Pentax and the S2 specifically:

 

I think when (and if) this Pentax camera comes to the US market, it will be welcome participant. This is of course, providing that it delivers to the higher expectations of the prospective buyers: high end 35mm DSLR users, and MF lovers wishing to go digital.

 

The Pro level DSLR crowd is already skeptical about MFD performance despite plenty of evidence concerning MFD IQ. They aren't stupid, they understand it's better, but how much better, and at what cost in other areas of versatility and performance? However, at under $10K this Pentax 645D could well be a supplementary addition rather than a replacement. Were it me, I'd seriously consider skipping the next wave of DSLR upgrades in favor of this camera.

 

The MFD crowd is either going digital, or already is. This camera is what legacy Pentax lovers have been waiting for ... or those put off by the stratospheric price tag of most other MFD solutions at twice the price. Unless a current owner of a MFD system has pretty ancient stuff, they're probably not a prospect. The ferocious losses from getting out of a current system, and into this one, would place the "actual" price tag right up there with a Leica S2 : -)

 

IMO, Leica isn't part of this whole consideration arena. The S2 defies logical comparisons. Comparative logic has nothing to do with it, and is an exercise done by those who already own a MFD system, or those who can't afford a S2. I recall the same exercises being done about the DMR ... a million comparative reasons not to get it, simply over-ruled by those that got one ... including me.

 

If I could manipulate my current gear closet, and eliminate even more stuff without cutting bone, I'd add a S2 in a NY heart beat. Don't care about all the competitive-comparative stuff. Logic could kiss my behind. It is more than enough for what I shoot, it's second to none in build quality, and it's simply the most beautiful camera I ever put in my hand.

 

Cudo's to those with the guts and money to get one ... you have more guts and money than I do : -)

[mjh]

Didn't the deal go through then? I thought that Hoya were going to sell the camera division to Samsung but keep all the rest (the only other product I can think of is binoculars but they may make other things).

Pentax is still a part of Hoya; nothing has changed. Last year, Hoya management was quoted as saying they might have to look for partners for keeping the camera manufacturing business sustainable, but nothing very specific. Also there was no mention of Samsung; that part was just speculation and rumors.

 

When Hoya had first tried to acquire Pentax there were rumors they wanted to sell off Pentax’ camera division as they were mostly interested in the highly profitable medical instruments (endoscopes and such) division. But thankfully these rumors didn’t come true.

[ptomsu]

Here's a slightly different perspective on the comparison of MFD choices RE: this Pentax and the S2 specifically:

 

I think when (and if) this Pentax camera comes to the US market, it will be welcome participant. This is of course, providing that it delivers to the higher expectations of the prospective buyers: high end 35mm DSLR users, and MF lovers wishing to go digital.

 

The Pro level DSLR crowd is already skeptical about MFD performance despite plenty of evidence concerning MFD IQ. They aren't stupid, they understand it's better, but how much better, and at what cost in other areas of versatility and performance? However, at under $10K this Pentax 645D could well be a supplementary addition rather than a replacement. Were it me, I'd seriously consider skipping the next wave of DSLR upgrades in favor of this camera.

 

The MFD crowd is either going digital, or already is. This camera is what legacy Pentax lovers have been waiting for ... or those put off by the stratospheric price tag of most other MFD solutions at twice the price. Unless a current owner of a MFD system has pretty ancient stuff, they're probably not a prospect. The ferocious losses from getting out of a current system, and into this one, would place the "actual" price tag right up there with a Leica S2 : -)

 

IMO, Leica isn't part of this whole consideration arena. The S2 defies logical comparisons. Comparative logic has nothing to do with it, and is an exercise done by those who already own a MFD system, or those who can't afford a S2. I recall the same exercises being done about the DMR ... a million comparative reasons not to get it, simply over-ruled by those that got one ... including me.

 

If I could manipulate my current gear closet, and eliminate even more stuff without cutting bone, I'd add a S2 in a NY heart beat. Don't care about all the competitive-comparative stuff. Logic could kiss my behind. It is more than enough for what I shoot, it's second to none in build quality, and it's simply the most beautiful camera I ever put in my hand.

 

Cudo's to those with the guts and money to get one ... you have more guts and money than I do : -)

 

I must fully agree. High end FF DSLRs are already pretty close to the IQ of "entry level" MF cameras. And the DSLR systems all offer much more flexibility and features compared to any MF offering.

 

The S2 is really kind of a special breed. If I would currently have all the money free for buying into the S System, I would most probably do so. I am currently using a 39MP Hasselblad and I am pretty happy with the results, but of course I must admit nothing comes close to the look and feel of the S2. And IQ of the S2 is at least on par with the 40MP backs (or will be with one of the next FW updates - maybe even better).

 

And YES, I found out over the past year that I do NOT need more than around 40MPs for the stuff I am shooting - landscape mainly. And I also might not really use (need) a tech camera, so no need for a separate back.

 

Well time will tell, maybe in a year from now, when the S System is more complete WRT lenses and also FW versions, it might come the time I want to spend the extra money and step out of most of my other gear (MF and DSLR).

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[charlesphoto99]

If there is anyone at all who can kill the S2 it is Leica themselves with their frequent misjudgments of the market, combined with marketing incompetence, lack of communication, and their usual arrogance.

 

I agree, alas. Anyway, no idea if the Pentax will ever be available beyond the Japanese market (sure you can import one but better be able to read Japanese menu). But the fact it exists at a third the price certainly raises the bar for everyone. Personally l'll stick to film MF and 35 digital. I think where Leica should have gone is with a larger sensor rangefinder ala the Mamiya 6.

[charlesphoto99]

 

While tempered glass may seem to be a "reasonable" substitute, the only feature it has - when compared to sapphire - is cheaper. It is in no way a substitute or equivalent of sapphire - in fact, tempered glass isn't as good a regular glass.

 

Then why does my D3 have nary a scratch on it after a couple years of and I had to sell my first M8 at a loss because scratches from a couple weeks use when I didn't have a screen protector on it? I'll take the tempered glass.