M9 Flash Photography

[snaggs]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Greetings,

 

Coming from a FM3a with tiny SB-30 flash, I was wondering how well the Leica flash system works on M9? The three things I like to do on a regular basis with my Nikon are;

 

1) Set a manual speed and aperture, and have the flash fill out any light that is not available

2) Set -1 on camera and +1 on the flash to darken a background like the sky or sunset

3) Just turn the flash on for a photo where the subject is against a bright background and have it filled

 

I never found Canon's flash anything like as good as Nikon. Does the flash system work well on the Leica?

 

I suspect not, but its worth asking

 

Daniel.

 

PS. Does the Leica do all the digital pre-flashes?

[lars_bergquist]

It does. It will do all the things you asked about.

 

Now with a digital Leica and decently fast optics, you will mostly need flash for contrast control, i.e. fill flash. The SF24D fills the bill admirably, and as you can crank up the ISO to 1000 with impunity, it will do bounce flash for you too (or bounce fill-in with low ISO). You need a 'system' flash cable, and a Nikon cable works OK. There is also a Nissin SC-01 that fits several systems.

 

The big SF58 flash is gross overkill, and looks absolutely ridiculous on a Leica M -- a very large tail wagging a very small dog.

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[swamiji]

The SF58 is actually a Metz, and has a very good soft flash. It may be big, but sometimes the SF24D is a little weak. I use both, and both have there place.

[lars_bergquist]

The SF24D is actually made by Metz too. And yes, I have larger flashes, but I don't use them anymore.

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

[Jerry_R]

It does. It will do all the things you asked about.

Not exactly.

 

3) Just turn the flash on for a photo where the subject is against a bright background and have it filled

 

M9 unfortunately does not work in TTL-HSS mode. Only R models and S2 work.

So when outside, you need to use ND filters, and\or change ISO to 80 - in order to go down with shutter speed <= 1/180s.

 

SF58 fits perfectly M9 and will not disappoint you in any conditions. It is not too big, at least to people who know what strobist means. Most Leica people have no idea how to work with flashes, so that is reason they are afraid of them. They prefer shallow DOF and cranking ISO. Their will.

[lars_bergquist]

Every camera with a focal plane shutter has this limitation. And id you think schlepping a SF58 around, and estimating proper exposure for HSS flash, is less hassle than slapping on a ND filter -- a common polarizer is often enough -- well, then ...

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder.

[Jerry_R]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Every camera with a focal plane shutter has this limitation

Hmm... Every current Olympus, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, etc. camera supports HSS and you can forget about ND filters, decreasong ISO or manual calculations.

 

a common polarizer is often enough -- well, then ...

Lars,

I am talking more about strobist plays with TTL-HSS (polarizer is not enough then):

Flickr: The Strobist.com Pool

Strobist

 

I know, few Leica users play with that, but it is still question mark why S2 is compliant, and M9 not. Hopefully will be corrected with firmware.

[mwalker649]

Can I use a pocket wizard II with a 24D for off camera flash?

[Jerry_R]

Mike,

I think it was answered in earlier thread about flash, dig in. It was thread after Reid Review if am remembering correctly.

 

I had no yet time to check off-body work.

[lars_bergquist]

The S2, being in large or in fact the largest part a studio camera, has to be very much flash oriented. Thus the promised lenses with leaf shutters. M cameras are not.

 

Once there were FP type flashbulbs. These worked on the same principle as HSS flash: One long even burn that covered the entire running time of the focal plane shutter, as the slit traveled across the film. The similarities are even closer: Like the HSS 'burn', the bulb had to be ignited before the first curtain started moving. My old Olympus OM-1 SLR cameras still offer this facility; the last refuge of the FP bulb seems to have been Japan. More parallels: Like bulbs, HSS can offer only strictly manual flash exposure.

 

So FP bubs went away and died. Why? Because people did not want them. Electronic flash units offered auto exposure, shorter exposures than even FP bulbs, and more convenience. Few people seem to use HSS today too, as few as used FP bulbs in 1980 -- and for the same reasons. A ND filter is the solution to the daylight fill problem. I never suggested that a polariser would always be enough. So what? Stronger dedicated ND filters are easily available. And they are smaller, lighter and more easy and fast to use than a HSS flash.

 

So why do some cameras offer HSS compatibility? Those cameras do generally suffer from galloping featuritis. In the world of micro-electronics, 'features' are an advertising point even with people who never use them, and they are dirt cheap -- especially if you access them by way of a menu and a rash of multifunction buttons. The Leica RF cameras have from the very first (I am speaking of 1925) emphasized fast, intuitive handling.

 

The old man from the Age of Flash Powder, and Ditto Bulbs

[Jerry_R]

Lars,

What are you talking about?

 

Few people using it? ND filters easier? HSS not intuitive?

Sorry, but you have no idea what we talk about...

 

Do not make excuses for Leica, it is just few lines of code to be copied into new firmware. Everything needed is there. Hardware is ready. M9 is DIGITAL.

 

Pls accept, that there are people, who want something, which you do not need. That is all.

Most of Lecia people have alergy to flashes. Fine. Their will. I have nothing agianst.

 

But there are some, who want to use dedicated Leica flash. I only want Leica body to work with Leica flash, speaking the same language. Nothing more.

[Guest mc_k]

...

SF58 fits perfectly M9 and will not disappoint you in any conditions. It is not too big, at least to people who know what strobist means. Most Leica people have no idea how to work with flashes, so that is reason they are afraid of them...

 

I don't think it's to scale. I shoot entirely in portrait, and found it a little too big to have hanging off the side.

[Jerry_R]

To Lars,

your advices have so common to TTL-HSS, as advices of using f/0.95 instead flash for such photography:

 

 

And ity is not question who is right or wrong. We simply talk about totally different worlds.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Jerry_R

[Jerry_R]

I don't think it's to scale. I shoot entirely in portrait, and found it a little too big to have hanging off the side.

Indeed, everything is relative. When I look on big dSLRs with grips plus flashes, small M9 with standard SF-58 looks small.

 

But if it is too heavy, and you use mostly portrait - maybe have a look on rotating flash bracket. Maybe in your case SF58 is indeed too much and SF-24 would be enough.

Don't know how you want to play with light for portraits.

[lars_bergquist]

[quote name=Jerry_R;1255963Pls accept' date=' that there are people, who want something, which you do not need. That is all.

Most of Lecia people have alergy to flashes. Fine. Their will. I have nothing agianst.[/quote]

 

I have simply explained why I (and incidentally most photographers) don't use HSS. And I am NOT allergic to flash. I used flash probably before you was born. This was when flash did not give you allergy, but second degree burns, if your luck ran out.

 

And finally, I have NOT tried to prohibit or even dissuade anyone from using flash. This reflexive defensive attitude of yours is something that you should think about and work on. Seriously.

 

The old man from the Age of Flashpowder

[snaggs]

To Lars,

your advices have so common to TTL-HSS, as advices of using f/0.95 instead flash for such photography:

 

 

And ity is not question who is right or wrong. We simply talk about totally different worlds.

 

Nice shot, any details on it?

 

Daniel.

[Jerry_R]

Nice shot, any details on it?

Shot last summer, before I joined Leica. I hope to show soon nice flash photographs using M.

In few weeks I will start photo a day project, will share link.

[Jerry_R]

A ND filter is the solution to the daylight fill problem [...] Stronger dedicated ND filters are easily available. And they are smaller, lighter and more easy and fast to use than a HSS flash.

ND filters aren't any solution for creative light effects and high speed flash (eg. stopping water drops) that can be achieved using TTL-HSS.

Such proposals only come from people who don't understand what we mean by TTL-HSS fill light effect.

 

If anyone is intersted, I can recommend two books for beginning:

Mastering Digital Flash Photography: The Complete Reference Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Chris George: Books

On-Camera Flash Techniques for Wedding and Portrait Photography: Amazon.co.uk: Neil van Niekerk: Books

 

First one is very good summary of flash techniques. Second one is more advanced.

I really admire these, who will achieve below effects just putting ND filter on the lens:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Source: Jarosław Grabek - Photography Fotografia Ślubna

 

Of course, many people prefer to attach f/0.95 or f/1.4 and enojy available light.

Why not? You can than achieve also creative results, like here:

Shooting a wedding with a Leica M9. | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

Lancashire Wedding Photographer Jeff Ascough - Documentary wedding photography covering Lancashire, Manchester, Liverpool, Cheshire, the North West, and UK

 

And that is also fine! If someone prefers shadows below eyes, because there was such natural light, fine. I also like to look at such approach!

 

But let no-one stop us from asking Leica to deliver what it writes on its page:

 

"The LEICA SF 58 is a powerful and versatile flash unit that is perfectly adapted to the Leica M, R and S systems. Whether you employ its sensitive control options to carefully lighten up a subject, its innovative reflector technology to diversify the lighting and capture movement, or its full capacity to turn the dead of night into living day, is up to you and your creative incentives. Thanks to ample power reserves, extreme speed, comprehensive features and simple handling, the LEICA SF 58 is cut out for any challenge"

 

So - it is not yet fully perfectly adopted to M9. I am sorry. But I really do not understand WHAT WE TALK ABOUT???

Removing such bug in firmware is just copying few lines of code. Come on!

 

And at the end - for me M9 is PERFECT for such playing with light, as above attached photos. Pure joy!

 

Edited by Moderator: Jerry, I have deleted the images here for the same reason I edited your post below. See comment below.

Edited March 9, 2010 by erl
Copyright infringement

[becker]

To Jerry

 

well done.

 

 

MB

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jerry_R]

well done. MB

Since M9 appearance - a lot of fresh blood jumped into M world

And fresh does not always mean new to photography.

 

* * *

Another samples, I really wish good luck with achieving such results with just ND filters:

 

 

 

 

 

Source (full of interesting information): 06 – flash outdoors � Neil vN – tangents

 

And movie, samples at the end: YouTube - PocketWizard ContolTL: Optimized High Speed Sync

 

 

Lars,

I tried to present you "my world" I talked about. This is how HSS can be creatively used.

 

PS: I do know how and why to used ND and polarizers, but I do this for example when photographing landscapes.

 

All the best!

 

Edited by moderator: Jerry, it seems evident that the images you posted were not your own and therefore infringed copyright laws. I have removed them to protect both you and the Forum from legal action. If, OTOH if they ARE your images, please state so and they will be re-instated.

Edited March 9, 2010 by erl
Apparent copyright infringement