mtomalty Posted January 11, 2010 Share #1 Posted January 11, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) As an owner of the ZM 21 on an M8 I'm running out of tolerance for the severe red/magenta sides. Shooting in snowy conditions is proving to be all but impossible to clean up in post, without a huge time expense, as the cast also creep in on all sides in varying degrees. My question is, "does the optical design of the Elmarit 21, asph or non, eliminate these casts or is it purely a function of this focal length reacting with the M8 sensor. Thanks, in advance, and apologies for sort of rehashing a known issue but I picked up the M8 and ZM 21 and 35 just before Xmas as a 'budget' way to determine if I could get back into the rangefinder 'lifestyle' after abandoning it a few years back and the color obstacles aren't making the experience particularly satisfying. Before losing any more momentum on my eventual (inevitable?) endgame of M9 and 3-4 lenses just wanted to poll users to see if Leica M lenses are resulting in similar concerns. Mark Mark Tomalty Photography Montreal Canada Travel Landscape Stock FineArt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 11, 2010 Posted January 11, 2010 Hi mtomalty, Take a look here ZM 21 2.8 or Elmarit 21. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Printmaker Posted January 11, 2010 Share #2 Posted January 11, 2010 I have a ZM 21/2.8 and have not seen red or magenta casts, though to be fair there is not much snow in Hawaii and the sand is either gold or black. I have, however, had to have the focus of this lens adjusted twice - first by Zeiss then, to get it right, by DAG. When I compare this lens to my Leica lenses, it is just as good optically but the build quality is no where near as good. While I don't believe a new Elmarit 21/2.8 ASPH is worth 3 times the price of the Zeiss, were I to buy a 21 again, I'd probably opt for a good used Elmarit. But when I switch over to a M9, a 21 mm is a focal length that will not see that much use so the ZM 21 is good enough for my purposes. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH1962 Posted January 11, 2010 Share #3 Posted January 11, 2010 I have the zm 21 2.8 on both M8 and M9 - to make it short: it is a wonderfull lens! The only thing: you need to code it and have the bajonet flange modified/exchanged to make the 28/90 framelines to show in the finder. Then it works peferctly... Code it as 21 2.8 asph, that is what most would recommend you. I hace made an other experience on the M9 where it works with an other lens code... I think 21 pre apsh - but I don't have it on hand now. Good luck! JPH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetterzentrale Posted January 11, 2010 Share #4 Posted January 11, 2010 I am having the combination 21 mm / M8 as well . Got the bajonet exchanged by Zeiss and coded it with a sharpie. Everything fine now. The lens is very good, quality is high. See the Erwin Puts review if you have doubts on the optical quality. Mechanics is a different thing. I trust that Leicas mechanic is way better ... You get what you pay for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted January 12, 2010 Author Share #5 Posted January 12, 2010 Thanks for the replies. The additional data help me form a more accurate expectation First off, I have no issues with the optical qualities, or mechanical for that matter (apart from that little focussing 'nub'). Very happy with the sharpness,etc My beef is with the magenta issue which, it would appear, I seem to have an overly sensitive sensor in this regard. I have the original bayonet and have the lens manually coded as the asph 21 which the body recognizes. Leice UV IR also in place Have gone with the non asph code as well but with no appreciable difference. Will post a sample, tomorrow, for visual reference. Thanks again Mark Mark Tomalty Photography Montreal Canada Travel Landscape Stock FineArt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 12, 2010 Share #6 Posted January 12, 2010 The red shift problem is - as far as I can see it - not caused by any lens nor specific to the M8 or M9, but shows on both cameras with many wide-angle lenses. There are many theories around about it; the most probable seems to be that it is caused by the camera software overcorrecting cyan shift. It is typical that you see it on snow, where it easily may be aggravated by underexposure. There is hope that Leica will deal with the issue by the next firmware update, which is due in the next weeks, may be only days. In the meantime you can use CornerFix (look for the threads about it here) which cures it effectively or very often just with a little adjustment of white balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 12, 2010 Share #7 Posted January 12, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a 21 Biogon 28. Optically I could not be happier - but it fell to pieces internally after three years and is virtually impossible to repair.:mad: Anyway, I never had any of the problems you describe. I coded it as an Elmarit 21/2.8 asph and that appears to fit perfectly. If the lens is coded but has the original mount, it is impossible for the camera to recognize it. It must bring up the 28 mm framelines for the coding to be effective, otherwise you will always see just the problems you describe. All M8 sensors are equally sensitive to IR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetterzentrale Posted January 12, 2010 Share #8 Posted January 12, 2010 You can simulate the new bajonet by pusing the frame selector to the right (towards lens). If the lens is coded (with for example a Sharpie) , camera will recognise the difference and correct the colors. This is tested in various threads and works. Try it , the magenta issue will disappear ! Of course Jaap is right . There are no differences in the sensor design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted January 13, 2010 Author Share #9 Posted January 13, 2010 Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, my ZM 21 does have the bayonet that calls up the 28mm framelines yet the magenta sides remain. Lens is Sharpie coded as a 21 asph and is seen, as such, by the camera. Just something I'll have to accept, I guess. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtomalty Posted January 13, 2010 Author Share #10 Posted January 13, 2010 For point of reference here is the degree of red/ magenta I get when shooting in a situation with neutral colored light. The center of the image has been set to a neutral gray. I can, certainly, minimize the color cast with gradients, etc but wanted to post this uncorrected image as the camera records. M8 with Leica UV-IR, Sharpie coded as Asph 21 which camera recognizes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/109348-zm-21-28-or-elmarit-21/?do=findComment&comment=1185850'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 13, 2010 Share #11 Posted January 13, 2010 I cannot check, as mine is in hospital right now, but I never,ever, got this result with this setup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brycepincham Posted January 13, 2010 Share #12 Posted January 13, 2010 I have the same problem with mine, when coded as a Leica 21mm, the correction seems to be to strong hence the magenta corners, I shoot a lot of blue sky's and this drives me crazy. The best option seems to be to use corner fix. Whenever I use this lens (which is most of the time), I turn the lens detection off, then run the raw files through cornerfix which works perfectly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisberg Posted January 14, 2010 Share #13 Posted January 14, 2010 Mine works great for me. Maybe it's due to using different brand of filters. I'm using a B+W 486 filter and have the lens sharpie coded as an Elmarit 21mm ASPH. -Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fefe Posted January 14, 2010 Share #14 Posted January 14, 2010 Same for me, B+W 486 and coded as Elmarit 21 Asph, I had cyan corners before the coding, no visible color vigneting after the coding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreyg Posted January 14, 2010 Share #15 Posted January 14, 2010 Taken with CV 21, without lens correction, coding, or post-processing. Just adjusted temp. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/109348-zm-21-28-or-elmarit-21/?do=findComment&comment=1186639'>More sharing options...
lct Posted January 14, 2010 Share #16 Posted January 14, 2010 Taken with CV 21, without lens correction, coding, or post-processing. Just adjusted temp. Not to rain on your parade but you've cropped your pic here. Would you mind to display the uncropped image? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted January 14, 2010 Share #17 Posted January 14, 2010 Here is a test of my 21 Biogon. The setup is tripod mounted at closest focus. The first shot shows my 24x36 copyboard and control scales. The second shot is of a piece of 32x40 foamcore. Exposure is F8 at 1/45 of a second. The lights are a pair of North Light HID banks. (the setup can be downloaded from a pdf on my website How to Print the Perfect Giclée: Kauai's Printmaker ) Foamcore is slightly yellow and not a pure white. Color temp is 6050K. Lens has Leica IR filter and is coded as a Elmarit 21. Lens detection is on. You can see some vignetting and color shift but it is no where near as bad as your sample. Tom Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/109348-zm-21-28-or-elmarit-21/?do=findComment&comment=1187301'>More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted January 14, 2010 Share #18 Posted January 14, 2010 Foamcore shot. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/109348-zm-21-28-or-elmarit-21/?do=findComment&comment=1187303'>More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted January 15, 2010 Share #19 Posted January 15, 2010 Coverage with 4x5 scanback as a control and for comparison. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/109348-zm-21-28-or-elmarit-21/?do=findComment&comment=1187458'>More sharing options...
lct Posted January 15, 2010 Share #20 Posted January 15, 2010 Bit of blue cast in the first shot and some red cast in the third one, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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