Future of Super Fast Lenses?

[eleskin]

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The thing is that fast lenses like the Noctilux, etc,, are designed for flare control and very good detail rendition in the shadow areas. I doubt cheaper slower lenses will be able to do this. I suspect flare control, shadow rendition may be the best selling points of Leica,s new offerings in the wide angle range with f1.4. Yes, you can limit depth of field somewhat, but with a wide angle lens, this is not as important. Yes, the sensors will get better, but the reach lenses like the Noctilux and Summilux have into the shadow areas and flare control are superior because of how they are designed, so here, the faster lenses with unique characteristics will always be in need. The added bonus is that even if we some day see the M10, 11, or what have you, with greater high ISO performance, lens design is still that, and these ultra premium fast lenses will still be of great value to the photographers tool kit. Hell, you will still benefit from even higher shutter speeds in low light! Even with good high ISO, this is still desirable, especially when your subject is moving in the darkness!!!

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[Alnitak]

Some real photographers actually need fast lenses to work, regardless of depth of field. I've yet to see a wide or standard lens from any of the Japanese companies that can be used wide open.

 

Really? I've used the the Canon 24mm f/1.4L Mark II and 50mm f/1.2L extensively, and they are incredible wide open. In fact, I would say that the 24L Mk II is a bit better wide open than the 24mm Summilux, and I love my 24 'Lux.

 

Then there's the 35mm f/1.4L which is extremely good for an old design, and actually sharper than the Pre-Asph 35 'Lux, and not far from the ASPH version, with no focus shift.

 

Really, I think knocking the Japanese glass is a big mistake. They have come a long, long way, and can easily challenge Leica and Zeiss with many of their designs.

[ulrikft]

Some real photographers actually need fast lenses to work, regardless of depth of field. I've yet to see a wide or standard lens from any of the Japanese companies that can be used wide open.

 

If you "can't use" the minolta rokkor 58 1.2, the noct nikkor 58 1.2, the canon 50 1.2 L, the sigma 50 1.4 L... wide open, you might need to check your technique grasshopper

[jsrockit]

Bokeh nuts will always want fast lenses...

[lct]

Bokeh nuts will always want fast lenses...

... or MF or LF cameras. Aside from PP tweakings, fast lenses are the only way to get (some of) the pleasure of larger formats in a smaller package. Don't try it folks, you will abandon hope as soon as you enter there.

[Ecar]

Really, I think knocking the Japanese glass is a big mistake. They have come a long, long way, and can easily challenge Leica and Zeiss with many of their designs.

+1.

And they have autofocus...And they are cheaper too...

You didn't mention the Canon 85mm f/1.2L - another outstanding lens IMO.

But I still like my Leica glass better than my Canon one.

Leica users must be irrational beings...

[jaapv]

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And they have autofocus...And they are cheaper too...

Do you really have to list the disadvantages of Japanese lenses?

[lct]

...Leica users must be irrational beings...

Why so? I can't tell for Canon lenses that i don't use any more, but i own a couple Nikon lenses as well (28/2.8, 45/2.8, 50/1.8, 50/1.4, 135/2, 180/2.8, 280/4). They are very good for the price but at the exception of the great 180/2.8, none of them can compete seriously with my Leicas.

[Ecar]

Do you really have to list the disadvantages of Japanese lenses?

You are right Jaap - my apologies...

They also have advantages: they're generally big and heavy, and make the guy behind them look as if an unknown race of alien cyclops is about to invade the Earth:p

[novice9]

The thing is that fast lenses like the Noctilux, etc,, are designed for flare control and very good detail rendition in the shadow areas. I doubt cheaper slower lenses will be able to do this. quote]

 

This is quite interesting and not something I had understood previously. I wonder if you and/or others could expand on how/why/to what extent an advantage of faster lenses is that that produce better shadow detail than slower lenses. Anyone have any examples they care to share? I assme that this statement applies only to the lower f-stops and that a faster lense shot at the same f-stop as a slower lens (say a summilux shot at f 2.0 vs. a cron shot at f 2.0) will not produce better shadow detail than the slower lens shot at the same aperture?

 

Thanks.

[pgk]

I've used the the Canon 24mm f/1.4L Mark II and 50mm f/1.2L extensively, and they are incredible wide open. In fact, I would say that the 24L Mk II is a bit better wide open than the 24mm Summilux, and I love my 24 'Lux.

 

Then there's the 35mm f/1.4L which is extremely good for an old design, and actually sharper than the Pre-Asph 35 'Lux, and not far from the ASPH version, with no focus shift.

 

Really, I think knocking the Japanese glass is a big mistake. They have come a long, long way, and can easily challenge Leica and Zeiss with many of their designs.

 

Hmmmm. I have Canon's 24/1.4 MkI, 35/1.4, 50/1.2 & 85/1.2. Not sure about the 24/1.4 MkII which I haven't tried but whilst all are ok wide open (which is where I use them), IMHO they are not as good as my 50/1.4 asph or 35/1.4 asph wide open. Then there's the size and weight..........

 

The 35/1.4 asph replaced the earlier, much older design because it was not possible to improve the design without using aspheric elements, so comparing the 35/1.4 Canon with the pre asph is not really fair. My 35/1.4 asph does not seem to have any focus shift issues that I have as yet been able to find. The 24/1.4 L MkII I have yet to try but it should say something about the MkI that it had to be updated.My 50/1.2 is adequate wide open but no more. I agree that the 85/1.2 is a superb lens but its a very quirky design (weird manual focus) and I don't like the way mine unscrews the whole of the front section when removing a filter:mad:. The 85/1.2 is IMO 'better' than the 80/1.4 R wide open but not at mid apertures.

 

Then there's distortion...... IMHO the current Leica lenses which I have used or tried are very good designs with very good, 'rounded' characteristics - sharp, good contrast, low distortion, good flare characteristics, etc, which few other manufacturers try to emulate. These characteristics are generally available at maximum aperture too, which is quite an achievement.

[lars_bergquist]

The thing is that fast lenses like the Noctilux, etc,, are designed for flare control and very good detail rendition in the shadow areas. I doubt cheaper slower lenses will be able to do this [ ... ]

Underexposure will always lead to lack of shadow detail, no matter how fast or slow the lens is, in absolute terms. Let's say that you are using a Elmarit (1:2.8) lens. Let's also say that 1:2.8 and 1/125 is correct exposure. Then, 2.8 and 1/250 is an underexposure of one f-stop. This would be equivalent to 2.0 and 1/500, or 1.4 and 1/1000, or 1.0 and 1/2000. What Eleskin is claiming is that somehow, 1/2000 at 1.0 would be LESS of an underexposure than 1/250 at 2.8. This is absurd. Exposure is illumination x time, period, and there is no magic in wide apertures that would change a one stop underexposure into a correct exposure, if made by a 'super fast lens'. This is superstition.

 

I do own a 35mm Summilux ASPH. I bought it way back when a high quality image on film required an ISO of 64 to 100. I do own a 50mm Summilux ASPH. I bought it because it does indeed handle flare better than the Summicron -- not because I needed the speed. And it handles flare better, not because it is a 1.4 lens, but because it is a modern lens, which the Summicron is not.

 

Modern design, modern coatings, modern care about the mount, improve flare suppression, and thereby also improve shadow detail -- irrespective of the absolute speed of the lens. Very few of us need (as distinct from 'want') lenses faster than 2.0, and most of the time, 2.8 does the job.

 

The old man from the Age of the 3.5cm Elmar

[swamiji]

I guess I am the exception to Lars comments. I don't need it often, but when I do, my Nocti becomes my best friend very fast. Light so low that AWB cant cope, light so low that focusing via the viewfinder is problematic. Zone focusing with paper thin DoF, is a real challenge. In these location Flash is not an option.

 

Yes, I have 24mm, 35mm, and 75mm Lux, but I have a WATE and MATE as well.

 

Between stop motion in moderate lighting and Very low light photography, I think that Super Fast Lenses, will remain a specialty item, but an important one

[jaapv]

I'll take them for cheap when they become obsolete.

[Jerry_R]

Hi!

I am new to the forum. I had a look at Noctilux flickr group, and many other places, forums - where people show photos. I must say - I never saw so many pictures not sharp, with front or back focus. I would just delete such photos immediately and would not dare to show them.

 

There is a solution, that could be implemented by Leica in future models - EVF and LV.

Manual focusing legacy lenses on u43 - G1\GH1 is a PLEASURE. You also observe DOF! You can magnify part of frame, focus, and shoot. No front\back focus isues.

 

PS: You were asking about photoshop simulation. I am not fun of it, but plsk have a look, you can even SELECT WHICH LENS BOKEH to apply!

 

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Highlights Examples

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Depth of Field Examples

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Tilt-Shift Effects Examples

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Accurate Lens Simulation

 

(move your mouse over pictures)

(even haling is being simulated)

 

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Overview

(short movie)

[Bo_Lorentzen]

jerry,

 

LOL.. good point about fast lenses in general. we totally agree on that one.

 

Have checked out alienskin bokeh - it don't work, still require a selection (naturally) and don't have the continued drop off as required. sorry it is nowhere close to even a cheap fast lens in terms of defocus and appropriate texture in the defocus area, maybe in the future this will happen, but it is not now...! Im expecting the next filter to be a magical polarizer plugin for photoshop.. yeeeha.

 

.

[swamiji]

Hi!

I am new to the forum. I had a look at Noctilux flickr group, and many other places, forums - where people show photos. I must say - I never saw so many pictures not sharp, with front or back focus. I would just delete such photos immediately and would not dare to show them.

 

There is a solution, that could be implemented by Leica in future models - EVF and LV.

 

 

When it comes to ultra low light photography, the choice is often, either out of focus or no photo, and no chimping allowed. It's like turning on a flashlight. As such neither EVF nor LV can be used. And if the camera has that annoying light often used for AF, your toast.

[James R]

Hi!

I am new to the forum. I had a look at Noctilux flickr group, and many other places, forums - where people show photos. I must say - I never saw so many pictures not sharp, with front or back focus. I would just delete such photos immediately and would not dare to show them.

 

There is a solution, that could be implemented by Leica in future models - EVF and LV.

Manual focusing legacy lenses on u43 - G1\GH1 is a PLEASURE. You also observe DOF! You can magnify part of frame, focus, and shoot. No front\back focus isues.

 

PS: You were asking about photoshop simulation. I am not fun of it, but plsk have a look, you can even SELECT WHICH LENS BOKEH to apply!

 

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Highlights Examples

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Depth of Field Examples

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Tilt-Shift Effects Examples

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Accurate Lens Simulation

 

(move your mouse over pictures)

(even haling is being simulated)

 

Alien Skin Software: Bokeh Overview

(short movie)

 

IMO, too often photogs become enamored with shooting wide open. Maybe spending around 10K for f/0.95 justifies using it wide open all the time. But, I don't think EVF is the answer. Some around here are unhappy with the current shutter lag. EVF would make them apoplectic and I'd join that group. LV could improve focusing, but requires many major M9 changes--LCD screen and battery life to name two.

 

Software is no substitute for a good in-camera image. I'm very good at making selections, but it takes time to do it right. Also, any selection mistakes become magnified big time when printed.

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Hallo,

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[scc]

Interestingly, recently I have been stopping down my lenses a lot more than I used to.

The main reason is discovering the superb clarity and detail the Leica optics offer at F4 and beyond.

And it has the added bonus of not having to spend nearly as much time getting perfect focus.

 

The old adage 'F8 and be there certainly' has some new resonance with me, especially now that higher ISOs allow this in even more situations than before.

 

I should be clear though, I still badly desire a 35 lux ASPH..

[Jerry_R]

I must tell you - I used 5D II with 35 1.4 and 85 1.8. Its standard AF was also once better, once worse. There is AF calibration built in 5D II. But even this - is not done once for life, but must be repeated, especially when you change lenses.

 

My friend - professional wedding photographer - was using mostly 2.8, sometimes, slightly more opened. For me - it was possible to focus perfectly with 5D II when using LV and manual with magnification. But then it talkes time! Very often it means - it is AFTER the photo ;-)

 

EVF for me is the same as LV, but closer to eye, camera more stable. I do not know if you have seen G1 or GH1 cameras. Maybe ones used to rangefinders see the lag, for me it never was too big with these cameras.

PS: red light is not working when focusing manually.

 

I am waiting for M9. I planned to buy Voigtlander 35mm 1.4 - especially for shallow DOF. I do not have money for Lux. But after thinking - I have selected Cron version ;-)

If LV or EVF would be available - maybe I would decide on 1.4. I am not saying - it is not possible to focus exact with 1.4 But I do not want to spend time on playing, testing, I did it a lot in my life already. Can't wait to enjoy making photos with rangefinder - which I used for some time (not regularly) about 15 years ago ;-) So am coming to roots!

 

I no more can imagine myself using BIG FF Canon or Nikon staff with their size lenses. Too often I lost photo opportunity - just because my camera was to big and too heavy = what means not with me...