nhabedi Posted December 21, 2009 Share #21 Posted December 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Old ideas are often the best (Epson R-D1). Curious that it takes so long for Leica to realise that. I haven't used the Epson myself, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I think they were going into the right direction by providing as many "analog" mechanical controls as possible/needed, but some of this looks a bit too fiddly for me. Leica could probably improve this by reducing to fewer, bigger dials. I think they should just add one dial, maybe a combined one for ISO and EV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 Hi nhabedi, Take a look here Leica, pls put the ISO dial back in the next digital M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
noah_addis Posted December 21, 2009 Share #22 Posted December 21, 2009 YES:D As I've suggested before the MP-style rewind knob would be great for iso. Lift and turn, it would be very difficult to change settings accidentally. I wouldn't want to give up intermediate iso settings, I think being limited to full-stops on the M8 was a huge problem. I suppose if ISO 2500 were super-clean it would be less of an issue, but I do love the intermediate settings especially at higher values. I think it would be possible to fit all of the ISO settings on the wheel, but if not you could have the dial without markings but bring back the top-plate LCD which would display the ISO (as well as battery and shots remaining). Auto-ISO has not reduced the need for a real ISO dial, at least for those of us who prefer to figure out our exposure manually. I know I'll never get my thumb wind nor will I get a digital MP with no LCD, but I do hope to get a manual ISO dial some day:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted December 21, 2009 Share #23 Posted December 21, 2009 If you added an ISO wheel, you could simply have the selected value show in the VF while the wheel is moving, and on the rear display as well. That way there wouldn't have to be separate markings on the wheel itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 21, 2009 Share #24 Posted December 21, 2009 I have no prblem with an ISO wheel, it might even come in handy;) On reflection though, I am a bit astounded at the frequency that many users here seem to be switching ISO. Maybe because I have been a film shooter for so many years I tend to stay on one ISO setting during one shoot. We don't pull the film to replace it with a faster or slower one every three exposures, do we? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted December 21, 2009 Share #25 Posted December 21, 2009 Alternatively you could have numbers 1 - 6 on what was the rewind dial, with third clicks between. You'd soon become familiar with the numbering. Writing 80, 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2500 on a relatively small dial might be a bit of a squeeze. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 21, 2009 Share #26 Posted December 21, 2009 So go back to the old DIN values.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted December 21, 2009 Share #27 Posted December 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) So go back to the old DIN values.. Good idea, but they're double numbers, and will have to be written smaller than single numbers. Another option if it has not already been mentioned - use the M7 type rewind knob, bigger than the MP rewind, so bigger numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted December 21, 2009 Share #28 Posted December 21, 2009 I ... On reflection though, I am a bit astounded at the frequency that many users here seem to be switching ISO. ... It's not a matter of switching ISO often, at least for me. I want to be able to pick up the camera and see at a glance what ISO is set. And, if I do need to switch fast (for example if my subject goes from indoors to out) I'd prefer a manual dial. I was looking at what ISO settings I used on my last trip and I found that I didn't switch often at all, and in fact my most used settings, by far and in order, were 160, 400 and 640. But one advantage of digital is that you can switch on the fly if you move between rooms or from indoors to out, and a manual dial, in my opinion, would make it even easier to switch. Putting random numbers or even DIN numbers would be a mistake though. The whole-stop numerals with dots as placeholders for intermediate stops would be fine, or an unmarked dial in combination with an LCD display as suggested earlier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 21, 2009 Share #29 Posted December 21, 2009 Good idea, but they're double numbers, and will have to be written smaller than single numbers. Yes, but it is a nice linear scale, easy to read with even only few numbers on the scale. I never understood why ISO preferred the ASA scale. It may render the theoretical doubling of the sensitivity better from a scientific point of view, but it is not as user-friendly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 21, 2009 Share #30 Posted December 21, 2009 Sorry, but I rarely use the "M8" ISOs with the M9. It is wonderful to be able to fine-tune the speed/noise relationship with certain lenses in certain lighting, so I use 400, 500, 800, 1000, and 1600 a lot. Any ISO control limited to whole stops above 160 is now brain-dead from the get-go. I'd even like to see Pull 125 and Pull 100 added. Which of course is in full agreement with the idea that shot-by-shot ISO changes are one of the benefits of digital imaging. But none of the "improved" methods of setting ISO suggested so far on this thread are actually improvements in speed or handling over the current M9 system, so far as I can tell, nor are they any closer to the look, feel, and operation of the ISO dial on the film cameras, which the M9 does a very nice job of replicating. I suppose one could change the graphic representation on the LCD to be an arc or circle of numbers animated to spin past a pointer or index mark as the control dial is turned - a "cartoon" of the M6-M7 dial. Heck, Leica could even put in a little image in the center, replicating the "Y" division used on the M2/3/4 for identifying tungsten, daylight, and B&W films - just for old-time's sake. But I don't see that that is any different from just snaking through the ISO list using the identical control dial motion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted December 21, 2009 Share #31 Posted December 21, 2009 Quite frankly, I don't know why they don't redesign the top plate completely - not necessarily make huge changes, but change it to include all the necessary controls to make the M system completely intuitive again. Any professional camera that requires the use of the LCD to change basic shot to shot settings is not acceptable in my book, and ISO is for many a basic and often used setting. Epson proved that classic design needn't be a design stuck in the past - it wasn't perfect, but it looked good, and worked reasonably well. I'm not suggesting the same layout by any means, but there clearly needs to be some new thinking here. Clear shutter and exposure compensation like on the current Zeiss Ikon - all in one dial. Just so simple. Equally clear ISO to suit people like Adan, and no doubt many others including myself - could be a direct dial or something along the lines of the Epson RF. Clear frame and battery info - could be a dial or sympathetic LCD. I'm certain most people don't need quick access to things like WB and Jpeg compression. The rest can be resigned to the LCD. For the traditionalists (like me) who want the MP look, buy an MP (like I did) and shoot film (like I do). However, there's no getting away from the fact that a digital M requires an extra dial or two to make it fully functional in the same way the M3 was fully functional in its time in the 1960's. I've completely pulled out of the Lecia digital experiment until they get this basic stuff right, along with the electronics which is still underperforming when one considers the price of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 21, 2009 Share #32 Posted December 21, 2009 Having been using an old Rolleiflex for the last couple of days, I have really come to like its way of working. You read an EV value from the light meter either in high (black) or low (red) light ranges. You then uncouple the aperture dial from the speed dial and turn the aperture dial until the correct EV is indicated on the front of the shutter speed dial. Finally you then recouple the shutter dial to the aperture dial Then as long as you are in approximately the same lighting conditions, you rotate the aperture and locked together shutter speed dial together to alter shutter speed and aperture to suit your requirements. These actual values are shown in a small window at the top of the focus lens, so you can see them as you focus through the waist level finder. I know all this sounds a bit complicated but it is actually a very nice way of working. I wonder if there are some lessons to be learnt for future digital cameras. Once I have a base lighting level, I am very used to estimating EV changes, without further reference to a meter. Sometimes there is value in old ideas, at least a part of which can be incorporated in future products. Meantime I have to say I find the ISO button and dial just fine on the M9. Now that I am used to it. It is a huge improvement on the menu driven method on the M8. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted December 21, 2009 Share #33 Posted December 21, 2009 On reflection though, I am a bit astounded at the frequency that many users here seem to be switching ISO. Maybe because I have been a film shooter for so many years I tend to stay on one ISO setting during one shoot. We don't pull the film to replace it with a faster or slower one every three exposures, do we? I'm certain most people don't need quick access to things like WB and Jpeg compression. The rest can be resigned to the LCD. A year or two ago, in one of the many threads about the surplus (or deficit) of knobs and buttons and displays on the M8, some wedding photographers claimed that for them it's really important to be able to adjust ISO and WB without taking their eyes from the viewfinder. I can only imagine they want to chase the brides indoors and out, thorough bush and thorough briar, sun and shade and candlelight, without ever letting the poor girls out of the framelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamriman Posted December 21, 2009 Share #34 Posted December 21, 2009 The ISO dial should be exactly like the MP rewind crank with a lift and turn motion. There should be a stiff click between each position with the ISO clearly marked on the dial. That way one could do it by feel since there are really only 5 settings: iso 160, 320, 640, 1250, 2500. The pull 80 should be a menu item. Reminds me of the dual function of the R-D1 rewind knob. You think Leica might have learned a trick or two from Epson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted December 22, 2009 Share #35 Posted December 22, 2009 Reminds me of the dual function of the R-D1 rewind knob. You think Leica might have learned a trick or two from Epson. I'd prefer to be able to change ISO with my right thumb, and I'd like to see the selected iso in the VF while I'm doing it, as well as the shutter speed if in A mode. If shutter speed is manually selected, I'd like to see the manual exposure indicators in the VF while I'm doing it as well as the selected ISO. I know this could lead to more VF clutter, so if there were a way to put this kind of info 'outside the frame' I would prefer it. IMHO a control up on the camera body like the MP rewind would be no better than a quick menu selection there is in the current M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noah_addis Posted December 22, 2009 Share #36 Posted December 22, 2009 ...But none of the "improved" methods of setting ISO suggested so far on this thread are actually improvements in speed or handling over the current M9 system, so far as I can tell, nor are they any closer to the look, feel, and operation of the ISO dial on the film cameras, which the M9 does a very nice job of replicating. ... A dedicated ISO dial would improve two major areas. First, if designed properly of course, it would prevent accidental changes. I have to admit I haven't had any accidental changes with the M9 but it happened all the time with the M8 and I lost photos because of it. Second, it would allow the photographer to see at a glance what ISO the camera is set at, without looking at a menu or the LCD, and in fact you could tell even when the camera is turned off or in sleep model. This would be a huge help for people like me who don't really rely on the in-camera meter. I often either just set the exposure from experience or with a handheld meter. It's annoying with the M9 that I can't just look at the camera and know where the ISO is set. I like the traditional controls of the M9 not for nostalgic reasons or because I miss shooting film cameras, but because I can glance at the camera and instantly see the aperture and shutter speed that is set. Even if the camera is turned off or asleep. The ISO is the only other major setting that affects exposure, so I think it should also have a mechanical dial or at the very least the ISO should be displayed in the top-plate LCD as it is in every other digital camera I've ever used. Except my wife's Canon G9 point and shoot which has a dedicated ISO dial:D. I don't care about replicating the motion required to change ISO on a film camera, I just want the camera to be more photographer-friendly. It's also annoying that I can't see the battery and frame counter. Taking the LCD away was a huge mistake in my opinion, but that's getting off topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 22, 2009 Share #37 Posted December 22, 2009 Second, it would allow the photographer to see at a glance what ISO the camera is set at, without looking at a menu or the LCD, and in fact you could tell even when the camera is turned off or in sleep model. This would be a huge help for people like me who don't really rely on the in-camera meter. I often either just set the exposure from experience or with a handheld meter. It's annoying with the M9 that I can't just look at the camera and know where the ISO is set. I like the traditional controls of the M9 not for nostalgic reasons or because I miss shooting film cameras, but because I can glance at the camera and instantly see the aperture and shutter speed that is set. Even if the camera is turned off or asleep. +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 22, 2009 Share #38 Posted December 22, 2009 ...I don't see that that is any different from just snaking through the ISO list using the identical control dial motion. I don't chimp... How do you change ISO if you don't chimp, Andy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotomiguel Posted December 22, 2009 Share #39 Posted December 22, 2009 I would love a Iso dial. I would know always how the iso is set and so easy to change. Now I think it's too late. I'm going to stay with my M9 for a long time. Anyway the iso button of the M9 is a nice improved over the M8. Now I can change the iso quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 22, 2009 Share #40 Posted December 22, 2009 "chimp" means looking at pictures, smartypants I never said I did not look at the back of the camer to set ISO (just as I looked at the back of the camera to set ISO on my M6). ISO setting on the M9 work just fine - if one is having trouble with it, the flaw lies behind one's eyes, not in front of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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