Recommendation For A Young Man Who Just Fell In Love With The M9

[johnbuckley]

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My 12-year old has been victim of years of his father's forcing him to stand still while I tried focusing my M7s, M8s, and M9s to take his picture. Recently, he's been taking lots of pictures with his phone camera. To my delight, over Thanksgiving, he picked up my M9 and discovered the joys of using a camera you can focus through a viewfinder, not hold in front of you at arms length in a position more in common with Frankenstein terrifying villagers than someone actually capturing an image. He has asked if there are less expensive, smaller cameras that, like the M9, can be focused manually, and on which he can learn the basics of photography. Yippee.

 

I offered him my old D2, but it's a little large for him. Can anyone recommend a compact-size camera on which an aspiring young photographer can learn the basics of focusing and setting proper aperture and shutter speed --just like many of us did on film SLRs?

 

Don't want to give him an X1, given its cost. Would really appreciate your advice. Thank you. JB

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[photojimj]

How about a panasonic GF1?

By all accounts a very good camera and with the adapter capable of using M glass.

Jim

[Bo_Lorentzen]

a banged up Epson RD1 with a CV lens, might be the ticket, though still a bit pricey for that young of a photographer..

 

My highschool teacher forced us to use fixed lens rangefinders rather than the schools Pentax K cameras, we hated him for it, and learned how to use them... in retrospect I wish I could thank him for his teachings.

.

[johnbuckley]

Good advice, and thank you.

[adan]

How about a panasonic GF1?

 

Hmmm - "he.... discovered the joys of using a camera you can focus through a viewfinder, not hold in front of you at arms length in a position more in common with Frankenstein terrifying villagers"

 

The GF-1 is just another hold-at-arm's-length camera.

 

Even the GH-1 and G-1 are not great examples of manual split-image focusing, although they do have eye-level EVF finders.

 

If it has to be digital - and manual split-image focus - and cheap... then the Epson would be the choice.

 

If it just needs an eyelevel RF-type non-EVF viewfinder, but not manual focus - then there are a couple of Canon options:

 

the G10 or G11: Canon unveils PowerShot G11 high-end compact: Digital Photography Review

 

or the A1000 or predecessors A700/710: Canon PowerShot A710 IS Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

 

I saw an 8-year-old playing "Mary Ellen Mark" with an A700 - and she also glommed onto my M8's to try out, so obviously there is an affinity there. See her at work with the Canon in this video between times 0:50-1:25: Sidewalks, sunshine provide blueprint for young artists - Rocky Mountain Independent

_________________________________________

 

If he can stand to shoot film (with lab scans on a CD for doing his own computer "darkroom" work and printing like Dad does), then the options open up a lot.

 

Basic compact film SLR - Pentax K1000 or Spotmatic, Olympus OM-1, Canon AE/AT-1

Basic fixed-lens rangefinder from the 60s/70s - Canonet, Konica, Minolta: Canon Canonet QL 17 GIII - Camerapedia.org

Konica Auto S3 - Camerapedia.org

 

Basic screw-mount Canon RF with a 50 or 35 - I'd recommend the Canon "P" as cheap and capable with a 35 or 50 - likely around $400-$600 w/lens. Will also take old Leica or new(er) Voigtlander SM lenses. The Canon P has basically the features (if not the fit and finish) of a Leica M4 - 35/50/100 framelines, thumbwind, crank rewind, no meter (or as an accesory in top shoe)

 

Canon P - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[chris_tribble]

Get a film RF - new they're cheap. Used they're a steal!

 

Voigtlander Bessa R2A R3A

eBay.ph: Voigtlander Bessa R Black Camera Body Excellent (item 290366664541 end time Dec 04, 2009 23:49:56 PHT)

 

pick up a used 35 mm or 50mm VC lens and your son can learn to be a photographer!

[johnbuckley]

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Andy - thanks so much. I think it does have to be digital, for a host of reasons. In a year or two, the photography courses offered at his school will force him to use film, and work in a darkroom. For now, in order to encourage the bug, I think digital is the best option.

 

Isn't it depressing there are so few options for a neophyte to learn how to do things like focus and set controls manually? Many thanks for the advice.

[johnbuckley]

Get a film RF - new they're cheap. Used they're a steal!

 

Voigtlander Bessa R2A R3A

eBay.ph: Voigtlander Bessa R Black Camera Body Excellent (item 290366664541 end time Dec 04, 2009 23:49:56 PHT)

 

pick up a used 35 mm or 50mm VC lens and your son can learn to be a photographer!

 

Chris - As stated above -- you posted just as I was replying to Andy -- I think film will come into play in a year or two, when photography is an option at school, and he can learn the joys of a photo lab. At present, though, I think -- like many of his contemporaries -- will want to see the image moments after being shot, on a screen! But thank you.

[Sandokan]

Chris - As stated above -- you posted just as I was replying to Andy -- I think film will come into play in a year or two, when photography is an option at school, and he can learn the joys of a photo lab. At present, though, I think -- like many of his contemporaries -- will want to see the image moments after being shot, on a screen! But thank you.

Well found Chris - a steal!

 

John, I think if your son already likes the manual experience, the joy of shooting a roll of XP2 or 400CN and then waiting a few days to have it returned WITH PRINTS and a CD for the digital experience, will make him happy. He may just surprise you in not wanting "instant gratification" so why not try him for a week with your M6 before getting the Bessa?

 

The Canon G viewfinders exist but I did not enjoy using them as much as the EVIL on the Pany G1.

[ModernMan]

With M8 pricing dropping like a rock you may be able to get him one of those soon.

 

Your story is inspiring, as it is the first I recall in a long while where there has been intergenerational inspiration regarding Leica cameras. This illustrates the importance of the M9 in returning Leica (rangefinder photography) to the broad relevance it merits.

 

I remember taking pictures at a school event with a somewhat worn IIIa (with scnoo) with Sumar while my dad had a IIIf rd.

[chris_tribble]

If it's got to be digital then he's better off with a DSLR. The 20D is a fantastic camera (I was looking back at some work I did with mine) and if you partner it with a 28 mm you've got a great standard prime + later on get a 50 as a portrait lens. This will last him a long time - and the lenses won't be a waste of money...

 

Canon EOS 20D Body only Great condition! 8.2 Megapixel - eBay (item 230402206143 end time Nov-28-09 17:00:15 PST)

 

CANON EF 28MM F2.8 PRIME LENS EOS 40D 50D REBEL - eBay (item 380182454710 end time Dec-04-09 14:54:14 PST)

 

CANON EF 50mm f1.4 USM LENS/EOS 40D/1D/REBEL XSi /NEW - eBay (item 300371804800 end time Dec-27-09 17:03:10 PST)

 

I know that the initial inspiration is an RF camera - but at least this way he can learn about focus, framing and depth of field. By working with prime lenses he'll learn how to manage the process of photography rather than having the camera manage him...

[UliWer]

A "proper" digital cam isn't really cool for a twelve year old. There are so many around and he already has his cell-phone cam.

 

If he really likes the manual way, a M2 or eaven a screw-mount could be much more appealing. If he has the chance of develloping the film and doing his own printing he could gain an approach to photography which is his own way - he won't loose the digital experience.

 

Just give him the chance to look at photos taken on film 30, 50 or 60 or even more years ago. Perhaps he will find an aim to achieve by himself.

[SJP]

+++++ M2 + 35/2.8 summaron

 

for me this is the best Leica from a design point of view

 

advantage:

- no direct feedback so you cannot chimp, pictures come from the brain not from the camera

- no light meter, learn to guess light values

- it is ueber cool (iphone camera logo = based on this design)

 

disadvantage (maybe, maybe not)

- the young man will be a focus of attention and ridicule, so he needs to develop a personality while he is at it (when his classmates see the images they will stop taking the p..s I expect)

 

It is a tough call to figure out what he would like, maybe it is worth asking?

 

PS getting a M2 with suitable lens is worth doing anyway even if you don't use it too much, knowing it is there is sufficient.

 

EDIT: I find with using film that a highstreet 1hr developing agency is good enough for 99.8% of the time + they can scan to CD/digital so the M2 is still compatible with the digital age

[johnbuckley]

Great ideas all. Thank you. Perhaps I can get the kid to think about film. I'll report in on the results. JB

[Guest Chris M]

Why not teach him thoroughly from the ground up and pick up a new like (used) Leica IIIC and a 50mm Sumitar Lens, that could be purchased alot cheaper than most of the above sugestions, and he will learn all about photography and each function that will be needed to understand about light and how it works, and also have a genuine understanding of how cameras operate, especially range finders.

 

chris m.

[Overgaard]

Don't offer him the D2. Lend it to him and see what he likes and dislikes abut it.

 

It would look at an M8 but the D2 is lighter and more focused on the light metering and light control (basics) rather than focusing. And he will get good results easily.

 

First I tied the D2 I thought it was huge and the lens was too open for scratches. Now I consider it a small and easy camera.

 

Lend it to him with the clear intention that it's a test of what kind of camera he likes.

 

And then say goodbye to it ;-)

 

- - -

 

Another possibility it to walk down to a photo shop and see what he likes. I mean, that's how we others find out what is right and what is wrong for us.

[zlatkob]

I second Chris Tribble's advice. It can be any of the small 1.5/1.6 crop factor digital cameras, new or old, any brand, with 28mm and 50mm lenses, effectively a standard and a short telephoto. These are wonderful learning tools and not terribly expensive. The Canon 500D/Rebel T1i and Nikon D3000 come to mind.

 

IMO, film cameras are much worse as learning tools because:

1. they don't make notes of each exposure.

2. they don't offer immediate feedback; "chimping" is be frowned upon by experienced photographers, but it is a great way of learning.

3. the results get mediated by whatever adjustments the lab makes.

4. dust and scratches easily get in the way of producing presentable quality results.

5. digital "darkroom" tools (Photoshop, Lightroom, etc.) offer far better and easier control of the image and are well-worth learning early on.

 

Finally, while learning to focus manually is a useful skill, there is so much more to photography than focusing, so I would not place any emphasis on getting a strictly manual focus camera for a beginner. Whether focus was achieved manually or by AF is really not as important as whether the focus is where the photographer wants it to be.

[earleygallery]

Good advice already - why not let him use your D2 for a day, then a film M, and see what he thinks, go with what he prefers.

 

If he likes digital then a s/h DSLR is the way to go. If he catches on to film, how about an Olympus XA ?

 

If you buy a digital which has manual settings buried in the menus chances are he won't bother and will prefer to shoot on program all the time.

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[piero]

IMHO:

the other day I got an email from my niece asking me if a D40 was a good camera. Her girlfriend at school as one and she found herself at ease with it.

I don't know the camera, I only use D3x or 1DsMklll bodies (I rent them when needed). But I tried to talk her into considering a simple body and a non-zoom lens.

She went out and got the D40.

 

If your son wants to clime up a mountain, you don't give him a pair of sox to wear on its feet. You get him a pair of mountain shoes. Not a La Sportiva to go on mount Everest, but something that will keep his ankles straight, and his feet warm.

 

When I begun taking pictures I had a beaten up Nikkormat FTn with faulty lightmeter. Not a joy. Source of frustration.

Learning to guess exposure is a like driving hoping not to hit a tree. Why not learn to control the car instead?

I doubt a kid nowadays will give up the use of a computer to develop his photographs, and guessing here and there will only give poor results.

 

One of my daughters (12 years old) picks up my M8 and goes around taking pictures. I explained to her the basics, and she enjoys what she does. I sweat cold, each time, but how could I say "no! that's my Leica, you use the GRll" after she has used both and prefers the M8?

 

Get your son a non expensive camera, but with the technology necessary to experiment and understand the importance of exposing correctly and learn the limits of the film/sensor sensitivity. And a 50mm equivalent lens.

[luigi bertolotti]

Leica CL - USED but with meter working well : for a young who has demonstrated to love RF and Leicas - the perfect and not too "risky" tool to learn focusing and metering - 40 as only initial lens - 90 as a premium when has demontrated he/she can take care of - then a CV 28 or 25 or 21 with finder; a Bessa could be an alternative.