Should the M9 successor have a Hybrid Viewfinder

[Bob Andersson]

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Hi folks,

 

Is it time to ditch the rangefinder concept as a means of focussing?

 

No, please, this is not an attempt to inflame passions but a genuine question in light of the hybrid viewfinder that Fujifilm has trailed (press release). Such a viewfinder would seem to offer the benefit of a direct view with the flexibility of a better experience when extreme wide-angle or telephoto lenses are used. In such a system would it still be worth keeping the rangefinder focussing mechanism at all or would focus confirmation via the electronic part of the viewfinder be an acceptable alternative? And if rangefinder focussing can be dispensed with then should an M9 successor even retain the M-system lenses as it's native lenses. For sure M-lenses must all be fully supported (via an adaptor?) but maybe, if it's not too shocking a concept, such a camera should natively support a new lens system with AF.

 

So, as usual on this forum, please keep the replies friendly but I'm really interested in hearing how the Leica rangefinder community feels this new technology should be integrated into the Leica experience, if at all.

 

Bob.

[jaapv]

Nothing new there - the idea of electronic framelines has been appearing in this forum with some regularity the last four years - as has the idea of a LED focus confirmation. Both have not met with significant opposition. I'm sure Leica is aware of that.

[earleygallery]

It looks interesting on the Fuji, but that's a fixed lens AF camera.

 

I doubt it would work more effectively on an M than the existing rangefinder, unless there was a radical departure in design terms and they went down the AF route too, then yes of course, why bother with an optical rangefinder.

 

But, I don't see that happening any time soon, and M users buy into the M system for what it IS, not what it isn't.

[Bob Andersson]

Hi jaap,

 

Ah. I thought the implementation that Fuji has managed of being able to toggle between an optical view and a fully electronic view was new. I've no idea whether there'd be room to implement such a hybrid viewfinder and a rangefinder focussing mechanism in an M-series form factor though, even if it was thought to be a useful addition.

 

Bob.

[rosuna]

It looks interesting on the Fuji, but that's a fixed lens AF camera.

 

I doubt it would work more effectively on an M than the existing rangefinder, unless there was a radical departure in design terms and they went down the AF route too, then yes of course, why bother with an optical rangefinder.

 

But, I don't see that happening any time soon, and M users buy into the M system for what it IS, not what it isn't.

 

Live view and a EVF may be complementary to the current optical viewfinder for particular applications and situations. Macro lenses, teles, fine adjusting of focus, etc. I never would renounce to a good viewfinder/rangefinder, of course. Other people may prefer a EVF-only camera at a lower price.

 

Leica may take the M system as a base for the parallel development of different cameras, sharing many (but not all) solutions. All of the cameras may share the CMOS sensor, but the classic ones have a rangefinder-optical viewfinder, the others being EVF only (smaller, cheaper, AF lenses), etc. This development may be step by step.

[Paul Verrips]

I would say, don't change the viewfinder concept on the Leica M. And never add an electronic viewfinder to the M.

 

I simply love it the way it is!

[jaapv]

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Changing the way the framelines are projected does not change the concept. Not does an optical signal that the RF patches are in maximum overlap.

[Xmas]

Hi folks,

 

Is it time to ditch the rangefinder concept as a means of focussing?

 

No, please, this is not an attempt to inflame passions but a genuine question in light of the hybrid viewfinder that Fujifilm has trailed (press release). Such a viewfinder would seem to offer the benefit of a direct view with the flexibility of a better experience when extreme wide-angle or telephoto lenses are used. In such a system would it still be worth keeping the rangefinder focussing mechanism at all or would focus confirmation via the electronic part of the viewfinder be an acceptable alternative? And if rangefinder focussing can be dispensed with then should an M9 successor even retain the M-system lenses as it's native lenses. For sure M-lenses must all be fully supported (via an adaptor?) but maybe, if it's not too shocking a concept, such a camera should natively support a new lens system with AF.

 

So, as usual on this forum, please keep the replies friendly but I'm really interested in hearing how the Leica rangefinder community feels this new technology should be integrated into the Leica experience, if at all.

 

Bob.

 

Lots of people find the Contax G1 and G2 cameras unusable, except with the Hologon which is manual focus...

 

Noel

[alexmann]

Changing the way the framelines are projected does not change the concept. Not does an optical signal that the RF patches are in maximum overlap.

Genau.

[AlanJW]

Lots of people find the Contax G1 and G2 cameras unusable, except with the Hologon which is manual focus...

 

Noel

 

I used G2 for a while before becoming a Leica convert. Having the viewfinder adjust to the lenses for framing was okay but you could never be sure exactly where the G2 was focusing. I am okay with autofocus but not where it deprives the user of control. Given my bad eyes, i would welcome some help in the form of a confirmation signal. I know others would abhor this but wait until you have a cataract and we'll ask again.

[Bob Andersson]

jaapv[/u]"]...Not does an optical signal that the RF patches are in maximum overlap.

My German is non-existent but if I'm understanding alexmann's reply he's in agreement. That leads me to believe that I'm missing something as I have no idea what "RF patches" are in this context.

 

But regardless, this thread was in no particular way intended to explore by what technology frame lines are displayed in the viewfinder, though we may hear more about that this evening. I was asking whether hybrid viewfinder technology, which allows one to toggle between a conventional rangefinder experience and an EVF has any place in the M-system bodies and what the implications might be if it did. But yes, as earleygallery says, this thread is not about "what is" so maybe I should curb my natural curiosity and get out and take a photograph or three instead of wondering what the future holds in store.

 

Bob.

[jaapv]

Most of us use the RF patch for focussing...It coincides with the patch that is in the middle of the viewfinder;) Yes, the ability to switch to EVF is a new idea. I think that might find less aceptance with the M crowd, however, if it can be switched off (i.e. switch to classic viewfinder) I would not be bothered by its presence. It might even be practical as a latter-day Visoflex substtitute. Personally I find the projected framelines more interesting, as that can solve the problem of FOV shift.

[Bob Andersson]

Hi Jaap,

 

Thank you very much for the explanation. I realised during a late lunch that I was having a blonde moment (actually that should be a "bald" moment in my case). My only excuse, apart from my still looking forward to my first Leica, is an over-familiarity with all things wireless: I stupidly translated RF mentally into "radio frequency" rather than range-finder.

 

Regarding the frame-lines, Steve Huff seems confident that Leica have an announcement up their sleeve later on today. Rumours count for nothing, of course, but I'll be following the Leica Forum twitter feed with interest from 20:00 CET.

 

Bob.

[A POV]

IMO that would be feature bloat. I'd buy a Fuji if that's what you want.

[jaapv]

In a way I agree. but then, in the M9 Leica have reached some kind of pinnacle of DRF design, I think. Unfortunately, in this world one must move forward or die. So it would need something that can be seen as a substantial upgrade, does not antagonize the existing customer base ( too much;)), be retrocompatible with existing lenses and cameras, and attracts additional customers. I would think something like this is about as far as they can go at this point of time. I don't need a Fuji, as I alredy have too many Leicas . But I might still buy one for my wife.

[Viv]

This Fuji may cost the X-1 some sales ...

[adan]

I certainly would NOT want to give up the manual-focus rangefinder - it is one of the main reasons I use Leica-M over other cameras. I find the split-image focusing to be a vastly better experience with any lens in the Leica range and don't see an EVF or "focus confirmation" as anything but a step (or 12) downwards and backwards.

 

One problem with electronic framelines is that they disappear when the camera is off. I like being able to explore a subject through the finder without draining battery power until I am ready to take the shot.

 

Also, until a few minutes ago, I didn't see how one could simultaneously project LCD framelines into the Leica-M viewfinder without interrupting the light path for the (absolutely essential manual) rangefinder. However, by adding another beam splitter to the system, I think I see a way. See diagram.

 

It would take precision to make sure the beam-splitter did not offset the RF image, since precise alignment is how we know things are in focus.

 

Personally, I wouldn't use or buy a camera so designed, but I do think Leica could do it, and probably without violating Fuji patents (if any), since the Fuji system (one beam-splitter) is not compatable with an optical RF.

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[aymoon]

I'm really interested in hearing how the Leica rangefinder community feels this new technology should be integrated into the Leica experience, if at all.

 

I would heartily welcome a digital overlay on the optical rangefinder system. Digitally projected framelines that change depending on the attached lens; the angle of projection could be coupled to the rangefinder for accurate framing, without the need for animating the graphics within the projected display. Also, the ability to show a live histogram, shutter speed etc. would be fantastic, and could be switched off if you don't want to clutter the view.

 

Having said this, nothing should be at the expense of the rangefinder. That has to stay. And no AF on the M please.

[zlatkob]

Also, the ability to show a live histogram, shutter speed etc. would be fantastic, and could be switched off if you don't want to clutter the view.

 

Exposure compensation, ISO setting and number of frames left would be fantastic too. The M9 lacks some important information in the viewfinder. It is too easy to forget the exposure compensation setting, for example. The new Fuji's viewfinder is very rich with information. At the same time, all of the info is outside of the image area. There is a histogram overlay, but I imagine that can be turned off.

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[aymoon]

@zlatkob - agreed. I think Fuji have done a great job with this. Right now my fingers are crossed for what Leica will unveil tonight/tomorrow...