jasonahc Posted August 30, 2011 Share #1 Posted August 30, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) More pictures from the MP and M6Millennium aka MPpapa All shot with 35mm summicron asph (top left: Efke25, top right: Delta 3200, Bottom: HP5@800) Hello NB23, how can you make that border on all your prints? You did it while you were developing them in dark room? Thanks! Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Hi jasonahc, Take a look here Cropping prints and borders. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NB23 Posted August 30, 2011 Share #2 Posted August 30, 2011 Extremely rewarding but extremely time consuming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted August 30, 2011 Share #3 Posted August 30, 2011 Hello NB23, how can you make that border on all your prints? You did it while you were developing them in dark room? Thanks! Jason Goes to show that everyone has his own taste. ... As for me, I honestly find this kind of border detracts ( pulls too much attention where it's not supposed to) from the photo. ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted August 30, 2011 Share #4 Posted August 30, 2011 Hello NB23, how can you make that border on all your prints? You did it while you were developing them in dark room? Thanks! Jason Yes, while printing. My negative holder is slightly larger then the negative itself. My job as a photographer (digital, of course) requires me to shoot a lot (thousands) and to precisely frame each and every shot. Cropping images in post-production would represent an insane amount of time and lost money and would only show my incompetence to frame properly. This is why, even in the darkroom, I never crop. And quite honestly, any of my shots would simply lose some appeal here or there if they'd be cropped. It's open to debate, but I get to decide I agree, some shots would maybe look better cropped, but with the black border, people and I get to see the true value of my compositions, great or mediocre. There is no lying. I couldn't care less about hcb's mentality or any other photographer dead or alive: Cropping is false, it's supremely lazy and time consuming at the same time. And it's costly on many levels be it money or other people's lost time on the said images. It simply shows the photographer's general unskill. No photograph looks better then when it's supposed to have been shot with a tele but, in the hands of a master, the subject got even more pronounced by the wide angle lens and the clever composition. That's like a Kasparov check-mate from a hopeless situation, as seen by an unclever mind, but feared all along by the grandmasters themselves. The Black border Rules and separates the good from the bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted August 30, 2011 Share #5 Posted August 30, 2011 The Black border Rules and separates the good from the bad. I put recently a black border around all photographs, that are meant for sharing on the internet, to show how ridiculous this last sentence in fact is ;-) Ned, I respect your intention and motivation behind this, but I completely disagree with the strictness, your writing about cropping implies. I aim for no cropping and most of my photographs are full frame shots, but I do not dismiss a less carefully framed photograph, because it's resulting black borders would coincide with a weak composition, as the vehicle, I shot the one moment photograph from bumped over a dead cat on the road. Even the Leica aficionado declared great master Henry Cartier-Bresson cropped photographs. Great work btw! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted August 30, 2011 Share #6 Posted August 30, 2011 .... I agree, some shots would maybe look better cropped, ..... No. There is no ''maybe''. ... It either needs a crop or it doesn't ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted August 30, 2011 Share #7 Posted August 30, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't know who hcb is except a few of his most known shots. And quite frankly, those who venerate him only show that they are amateurs. Getting seriously tired of reading his quotes all over the place. Is he like the Lady Gaga of the microcosm, the miniature world of rf photography? I don't have much interest in his photography. Mine and the energy i put into it is much more important then what some dude thought of his own work, 50 years ago. I am just keeping it real. All I know is that he, like me, had a printer/editor that worked with all his images. I can't care less about how and where my digital work ends as it's in the hands of retouchers and then goes around the world. But one thing I know is if my work would need cropping iit'd represent a huge waste of time and money to all affected. Menos, I'm not sure what you are trying to say about the black border. What I was saying about it was simple: showing the whole image, the whole negative area, shows your true value as a photographer and composer. In revenge, showing a nicely cropped picture shows how good in post-production you are and your compositional skills after the fact... Which is pointless if you are a photographer but worthy if you are a professional retoucher. If you are to make square or panoramic images out of a 24x36 negative, then it is hopeless, Imo. My photography, like all serious things, respects some rules. It is mine to decide about my photography. You, hcb or lady gaga are all free to do what you want with your own work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzo Posted August 30, 2011 Share #8 Posted August 30, 2011 I don't know who hcb is except a few of his most known shots. And quite frankly, those who venerate him only show that they are amateurs. Getting seriously tired of reading his quotes all over the place. .... Ned, Of all the bullocks we heard from you, this must take pole position. Seriously ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 30, 2011 Share #9 Posted August 30, 2011 I don't know who hcb is except a few of his most known shots. And quite frankly, those who venerate him only show that they are amateurs Maybe you should try and get to see some of his photographs, you never know you may turn out to like them. His has a great body of work, and strangely enough it isn't just enjoyed by amateurs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 30, 2011 Share #10 Posted August 30, 2011 [...]This is why, even in the darkroom, I never crop. And quite honestly, any of my shots would simply lose some appeal here or there if they'd be cropped. It's open to debate, but I get to decide:) I like that expression (in bold.) I agree, some shots would maybe look better cropped, but with the black border, people and I get to see the true value of my compositions, great or mediocre. There is no lying. That's rather Old School, but your choice. I have many images where a large black border completely obscures where the border might be. I like that. The Black border Rules and separates the good from the bad. See my last comment. No deity was involved in proportioning various formats. To crop or not is a rational human decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prunelle Posted August 30, 2011 Share #11 Posted August 30, 2011 ... What I was saying about it was simple: showing the whole image, the whole negative area, shows your true value as a photographer and composer.In revenge, showing a nicely cropped picture shows how good in post-production you are and your compositional skills after the fact... Which is pointless if you are a photographer but worthy if you are a professional retoucher. If you are to make square or panoramic images out of a 24x36 negative, then it is hopeless, Imo. My photography, like all serious things, respects some rules. It is mine to decide about my photography. ... Couldn't agree more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 30, 2011 Share #12 Posted August 30, 2011 Can you separate the photographer and the post-production expert? Either they are the same person or they have to work close together with the photographer as director to get to the end result. For which - and for the whole process- the photographer is responsible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted August 30, 2011 Share #13 Posted August 30, 2011 Some harsh words up above from NB23 (whose work I respect !), and I disagree with them. It's not a win-loose debate, it's a personal decision, but it does no good to call the "other guys" lazy and incompetent because they disagree with your opinion or your work process. I crop, burn, dodge, overlay, cut, paste, modify curves, grayscale color images . . . not because I am lazy or incompetent, but because that image is mine and I will do whatever I desire to it before I show it to anyone. Maybe it is no longer a "photograph" but that means nothing to me. It's my image and I work hard to get it where I like it. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted August 30, 2011 Share #14 Posted August 30, 2011 I agree that the composition should be done within the viewfinder and that it is best if cropping is then not required at all. But to exclude it in that religious way is too much for me. In quick action it is also not that easy as with the M viewfinder the framelines do not present a sharp edge, i.e. the actual frame varies with distance. So I wonder how you do it. Regards, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 30, 2011 Share #15 Posted August 30, 2011 So I wonder how you do it. This is where the hypocrisy lies, your brain convincing you that those fuzzy edges were in fact sharp delineations in composition on the day you made the exposure. Its all smoke and mirrors. I don't mind happy accidents, but if the image I get isn't the image I composed for, I do a mild crop, its better than kidding anybody on that the Leica viewfinder is so accurate. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted August 30, 2011 Share #16 Posted August 30, 2011 Ned, Of all the bullocks we heard from you, this must take pole position. Seriously ! Mister "severe crop extreme photoshop contrast" calls himself "we"? Azzo, you should take note instead of giving photoshop makeups to your subjects. Just saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted August 30, 2011 Share #17 Posted August 30, 2011 You guys are killing me softly, making me laugh so hard. The round end of the egg, obviously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted August 30, 2011 Share #18 Posted August 30, 2011 Mister "severe crop extreme photoshop contrast" calls himself "we"? Azzo, you should take note instead of giving photoshop makeups to your subjects. Just saying. Well now . . . that remark pretty much flushes your credibility down the toilet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoxforddoc Posted August 30, 2011 Share #19 Posted August 30, 2011 NB23, If you print on normal sized paper (my default wet print is on 12 x 16 inch paper) with a standard white border (1 inch in my case) for mounting, you always end up cropping. The aspect ratios of standard sized darkroom papers do not conform to a 24x36 ratio. I only have one half glassed negative carrier for my V35 and a few masks (different negative sizes) for my IIc. Using a series of 2 bladed RRB easels (from 10x12 to 20x24), I can't get black borders without buying a whole load of new 4 blade easels or filing out my valuable negative carriers/masks. I know of very few wet printers who always print black borders. It's just too much hassle. I've got to admire your patience though. I've just spent two and a half hours in the darkroom getting one frame right. The joys of photography, fixer, cold coffee and grumpy wives!! Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 30, 2011 Share #20 Posted August 30, 2011 NB23, if your editors never crop your work, you should post their names. I would guess that if there are ten or more editors there are two that do not crop your work unless you have an art director leaning over your shoulder and in that case I seriously doubt you are shooting 35mm, unless you live in some impoverished society where that is all they have. If you shoot only for yourself FF is fine, but it never, almost never survives editors, and I was one for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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