R10 RIP, but...

[AlanG]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Everybody knows by now. There will be no R10, no DSLR. Need we despair? No, there is something coming that is as good, maybe even better. A full-format EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses, and probably with a full range of new AF lenses.
How do I know? Simple. Stephan Daniel told me (with exception of the lens bit, but that seems to be inevitable) with 100% conviction in a private conversation. And no, I am not under NDA

If true, I'm glad they followed my advice. But now the idea seems to be received a little better on this forum. What changed?

[andybarton]

As I said in the news thread, I looked at a G1 yesterday and the viewfinder was diabolical. If that's the best on the market then they can forget it as far as I am concerned

Small, dark, jittery, rubbish

[marknorton]

Andy, yes, lots of "I couldn't possibly" G1 detractors here but I like it and sounds like it's the best bet for a new body.

[adan]

Oh, Alan, you know the stages of grieving - FIRST denial and THEN acceptance. You were just ahead of your time.

Plus, so long as Leica emulated the tar baby and "just sat there and din' say nuttin'.", there was room for debate. Now that they have - more or less, kinda - revealed their plans, which do, generally, mirror your own ideas, some will still argue against it even when Leica is the source, and others will say "OK, that's the way it is."

AndyB - I won't argue with you, either. As EVFs go, the G1 is the best there is so far. It's all relative. Me, I don't even like regular, full-sized SLR screens unless they have a split-image device. Tried a Canon 5D2 for three weeks, dumped it for an 18 Super-Elmar. I won't personally bother with anything but an RF again for years to come.

[lct]

Originally Posted by adan

...Maybe old weird Frank's idea of a "new Visoflex" is not that far off the mark - except that it would just be an EVF "prism" that slides into an M9 (with Live View) hotshoe....Or - to avoid strokes among M purists - it could be a free-standing body that IN EFFECT is a Live View M9, sans RF, with an EVF hump on top...Just blue-skying ideas here...

You mean grey sky i guess but anyway those solutions would not give a FF body fitting R lenses. I would bet that the next body will be a full frame G1 using the R mount or compatible with it instead.

[sjöbjörn]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Everybody knows by now. There will be no R10, no DSLR. Need we despair? No, there is something coming that is as good, maybe even better. A full-format EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses, and probably with a full range of new AF lenses.
How do I know? Simple. Stephan Daniel told me (with exception of the lens bit, but that seems to be inevitable) with 100% conviction in a private converation. And no, I am not under NDA

Sounds very interesting to me, if the price tag is right! Would allow for a compact FF with great lenses.

Thank you for sharing the information!

[georg]

I think Leica has to clear some things up with official, written statements!

Lot's of confusion is going on, like "there will be no R10 from Leica" reads to some: "we won't build the R10, somebody else will"...

- Mr. Kaufmann himself said in LFI-Interview 1/2009, that we can propably expect something like an EVIL, those little hints were als made with the S-System, over a year before it was presented ("full-frame? why not bigger?").
- they also mentioned propably not using Kodak-CCDs anymore
- even on the Photokina they referred to the new "R10" as a very small camera
- in my conversations with Leica-employees, they didn't want to call it "R10", just a compatible solution derived from the S2 (electronics/AF) so I was a bit surprised that they called it that way in front of David?

Right now, the electronic viewfinders are of bad quality compared to a good SLR, propably they got a supplier with promising new LCDs/OLEDs? It was similar with the digital M, as soon as the technology was available, they switched their plans. I think they like the idea, because it's out-of-the-box-thinking (like the S2) and would allow to use R AND M-lenses!

But I'm sure they'll continue to go Mr Kaufmanns way (more independency, S2 as an electronic platform, Leitz-Park instead rebadged Panasonics), Mr Spiller is just the CEO and has to do whatever Mr. Kaufmann wants and he hopefully has precise orders (Lee...)

[adan]

Originally Posted by lct

...those solutions would not give a FF body fitting R lenses.

Why not?

[lct]

Originally Posted by adan

Why not?

Because a full frame M won't probably be launched before the FF G1 or whatever new R compatible camera.
Edit: Then M lenses for the M9, noblesse oblige, and R + new PanaLeica lenses for the FF G1. Just a guess of course.

[earleygallery]

I've remarked in another thread the new 'R' solution sounds to me a lot like a larger sensor (FF ?) Digilux 3. R lenses used with an adapter, probably stop down metering but the viewfinder will compensate for that.

Given that Leica are targeting the pro fashion/wedding/adverstising market with the S2 I wonder what the longer term objectives are. The S2 competes more with MF digital than the traditional SLR market, and they must surely want a slice of that too, but an EVIL camera isn't going to draw anyone away from their Nikons/Canons so will there be a future S1/baby S2 which will use the same AF lenses which Leica will introduce for the EVIL system? It could be a stepping stone to a more developed DSLR

Whatever, the immediate issue is that Leica must bring their solution to market asap. Another year or two will be too late for most R users I suspect.....

[Cherub]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Everybody knows by now. There will be no R10, no DSLR. Need we despair? No, there is something coming that is as good, maybe even better. A full-format EVF camera, fully compatible with R lenses, and probably with a full range of new AF lenses.
How do I know? Simple. Stephan Daniel told me (with exception of the lens bit, but that seems to be inevitable) with 100% conviction in a private converation. And no, I am not under NDA

Hmmmmm ... interesting. I was talking about a "next" DIGILUX in a previous post ... replace the name of DIGILUX 4 by ... "R10" or whatever ... That's what I expected from Pana/Leica ... If well priced ... Deal for me.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...lux-4-a-5.html

[marknorton]

The optical viewfinder of the Digilux 3 was hardly a marvel. I'm quite sure Leica recognise that this will be a key issue but with a large sensor, I wonder about the achieveable read-out rate.

Anyone know what they do with professional video cameras?

[giordano]

Originally Posted by marknorton

The optical viewfinder of the Digilux 3 was hardly a marvel. I'm quite sure Leica recognise that this will be a key issue but with a large sensor, I wonder about the achieveable read-out rate.

Anyone know what they do with professional video cameras?

Presumably the EVF refresh rate is tied to the video frame rate - 25 or 30Hz (or is it double that).

But video cameras in general don't need or have viewfinders nearly as good as the best SLRs and rangefinders, because you never have to frame and press the button at the decisive moment: you have to frame and get things rolling before the action you want to capture and keep the camera running until afterwards.

[Photon42]

Originally Posted by andybarton

As I said in the news thread, I looked at a G1 yesterday and the viewfinder was diabolical. If that's the best on the market then they can forget it as far as I am concerned

Small, dark, jittery, rubbish

I realize you're just at the beginning of digesting the whole news Sure the G1 viewfinder doesn't hold up to the ones found in decent SLRs. Look at it maybe from this perspective: The G1 plays in the league of entry level SLR cameras. On that level, it is already very good and has capabilities no other competitor has (live histo, if you like). Information in the VF can be stripped down to a simple line just like as a Nikon, for that matter. Manual focus can be done even without the magnifier for normal applications.

To me, there are other things getting in the way when using Leica lenses on a G1: The whole manual focusing with the mag is hopefully not the final solution and crop factor is another story w.r.t. full frame lenses and noise at high ISOs. All that can be taken care of with today's technology, however.

Now take the potential selling point of a R-whatever, I'm sure even the G1 finder can be improved. If you're bound to optical and mechanical excellence, you will have of course a hard time liking it.

Regards
Ivo

[stuny]

Jaap -

Thank you for the added information from your private conversation. If the concept is well executed I will be interested.

[johnastovall]

No humps on any M!!

[lct]

They have a red nose already so why not a hump after all. BTW i've found the code name of the next M body: SAEL. Swiss Army Evil Leica

[cnguyen]

Still love the Leica look of my R lenses on the 5D though. R stuff will live on for awhile...

[rosuna]

The M system brings problems for a EVF camera of 35mm format, due to lens to flange distance... Moreover, M to R mount compatibility can be complicated...

I think the new camera will bring a new mount, with a relationship with R mount, similar to that of 4/3 and micro 4/3...

[lct]

Originally Posted by cnguyen

Still love the Leica look of my R lenses on the 5D though...

So do I Charles and i will certainly keep using some Leica gems like the pre-apo 90/2 and the Apo-Telyt 180/3.4 that i like much. Now some Zeiss lenses are appealing as well and the next ones (50/2, 28/2) are quite tempting i feel. I have never bought a Zeiss lens so far but i will certainly cross the Rubicon if the way for Leica to reward my loyalty is to offer me an EVF.