New and Old Noctilux

[haribo]

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Roger,

thanks for the help and suggestion.

When I focus my 50 at f1.4 I can nail the focus. This leads me to the conclusion that it is not about my eyes or focusing capabilities but about lenses.

 

Shooting several images of the same portrait works - but IMO it is more like if you shoot 5 images one will be focused in a way that the focus-shift problem of the lens is compensated by random. I like to have 3 or 4 out of 5 in focus, and not 1 (eventually).

 

It was not thre ruler-test in the first place, there were unsharp eyes in the first place.

Some people may even think its user error.

 

It's definitely not a general problem with Nocties. Mine is fine at any aperture and because I use the 'steer' (leicagoodies) it is very easy and fast to focus with it as well.

 

Having said that, it is part of the nature of the "beast" that the margin for error is a lot smaller when focusing at f1 than it is at f1.4.

It is my opinion that many on this forum get way too stuck up on technical things. A bad habit which is fostered by many "pros' and review sites around.

Basically when it comes to things like this, photography is very much like golf.

Knowing all the technical stuff is fine and dandy but one doesn't take it onto the course.

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[tom0511]

It's definitely not a general problem with Nocties. Mine is fine at any aperture and because I use the 'steer' (leicagoodies) it is very easy and fast to focus with it as well.

 

Having said that, it is part of the nature of the "beast" that the margin for error is a lot smaller when focusing at f1 than it is at f1.4.

It is my opinion that many on this forum get way too stuck up on technical things. A bad habit which is fostered by many "pros' and review sites around.

Basically when it comes to things like this, photography is very much like golf.

Knowing all the technical stuff is fine and dandy but one doesn't take it onto the course.

 

It is possible that just my copy or maybe just some suffer from focus shift.

 

If I cant get consistent focus with a lens than it leads to worse images. Thats how I see it. Some things might be discussed on a very theoretical base, but precise focus is something which has a lot of influence on the result/the image.

To talk with your words: if I get consistently better results with one golf club compared to another one than I just use the one I get the better results with. If I get good results with 4 golf clubs but only here and then with the fifth I assume it´s the club and not my game.

Again, if you and others get good reliable results with the Noctilux on a digital M without any focus shift- great, I tried for about 1 year (including sending the lens to Solms) and finally gave up.

 

Regards, Tom

[swamiji]

My lens was mainly calibrated for f1.4 - where it did focus very accurate.

Would I go to f1 I woul have to focus with the rangefinder and then move the distance ring just a little bit more, but than again only at short distances.

Is this what you do? Or what would one practise? The rangefinderfocusing itself should be the same with each lens, shouldnt it? But how do you practise to compensate focus shift?

 

First let me say, that my Nocti is one of the last produced before all that 16k nonsense. It is as Bender once said "As the factory made her", 6-bit and all. A store demo, with warrantee.

 

That said, I purchased her before I left for India, and knew I would take her as is. I read here in this forum about back shift and all... but had no time for that...

 

So I locked my self up in a room with a lot of brickabrack (ie: statues, junk, clutter, etc), and just practiced. First I would pick a point on an object, focus, shoot, zoom in fully to check focus.... Over and over again. Then when I felt comfortable, I reduced the light... eventually just a candle flame.... and repeated until I got the images I wanted.

 

Then next step was to find a friend with a toddler and let my lens follow the kid... again focus, shoot, check, until I was happy with the result...

 

Shooting with a Nocti is not the same as other lens, first the long through (the turning distance from 1m to infinity), is longer, second at F1 it is much less forgiving. Actually I do this process before any taxing adventure, just so I have it right when I get to the event.

 

The cherry blossom photo, was a problem, not that I could not focus on one blossom, but which blossom would be best for my composition. The Night festival photo was taken from a moving boat. No tripod for either, however I used the porthole to lean against for the night shot.

 

I have never experienced the focal shift, I set the F-stop first then focus... I compose as I focus, I don't usually have time to set exposer/f-stop while shooting.

Edited September 29, 2009 by swamiji
additional info

[haribo]

It is possible that just my copy or maybe just some suffer from focus shift.

 

If I cant get consistent focus with a lens than it leads to worse images. Thats how I see it. Some things might be discussed on a very theoretical base, but precise focus is something which has a lot of influence on the result/the image.

To talk with your words: if I get consistently better results with one golf club compared to another one than I just use the one I get the better results with. If I get good results with 4 golf clubs but only here and then with the fifth I assume it´s the club and not my game.

Again, if you and others get good reliable results with the Noctilux on a digital M without any focus shift- great, I tried for about 1 year (including sending the lens to Solms) and finally gave up.

 

Regards, Tom

 

Maybe I should have made a bigger line space between the first and second part of my post. Only the first sentence was directed at you. I feel sorry for your misfortune with your Nocti but it is not a general problem with this lens. That's all I meant saying.

 

The second part was not directed at you. It was merely a general observation.

[haribo]

First let me say, that my Nocti is one of the last produced before all that 16k nonsense. It is as Bender once said "As the factory made her", 6-bit and all. A store demo, with warrantee.

 

That said, I purchased her before I left for India, and knew I would take her as is. I read here in this forum about back shift and all... but had no time for that...

 

So I locked my self up in a room with a lot of brickabrack (ie: statues, junk, clutter, etc), and just practiced. First I would pick a point on an object, focus, shoot, zoom in fully to check focus.... Over and over again. Then when I felt comfortable, I reduced the light... eventually just a candle flame.... and repeated until I got the images I wanted.

Then next step was to find a friend with a toddler and let my lens follow the kid... again focus, shoot, check, until I was happy with the result...

 

Shooting with a Nocti is not the same as other lens, first the long through (the turning distance from 1m to infinity), is longer, second at F1 it is much less forgiving. Actually I do this process before any taxing adventure, just so I have it right when I get to the event.

...

 

Thanks for posting this.

That's exactly what i meant with my golf analogy.

[marcusperkins]

It is possible that just my copy or maybe just some suffer from focus shift.

 

If I cant get consistent focus with a lens than it leads to worse images. Thats how I see it. Some things might be discussed on a very theoretical base, but precise focus is something which has a lot of influence on the result/the image.

To talk with your words: if I get consistently better results with one golf club compared to another one than I just use the one I get the better results with. If I get good results with 4 golf clubs but only here and then with the fifth I assume it´s the club and not my game.

Again, if you and others get good reliable results with the Noctilux on a digital M without any focus shift- great, I tried for about 1 year (including sending the lens to Solms) and finally gave up.

 

Regards, Tom

 

Tom, there is nothing wrong with your lens. All Noctilux 1's have focus shift when stopping down - it's just the way they are. However this is not necessarily noticeable to all when photographing three dimensional objects. In addition, you (or your subject) only have to breath in order to subtly change the focus, so it is unlikely you will nail it each time - depending of course on your level perfectionism.

 

For the record, I found the rangefinder on both my MP and M8 to be very reliable and consistent, but I still regularly missed focus (from a perfectionist point of view).

 

One way to get around the focus shift when stopping down is to focus, then adjust the focus ring a couple mm. Very easy to get a feel for it, and very reliable.

 

If you want to check the true focus accuracy of your Noct 1 and camera, you have to mount it onto a tripod, and shoot an equally static subject. Testing focus by hand will undoubtably introduce small errors as you unconsciously wobble and sway around.

 

The picture linked below is actually a little out of focus (in front by about 4-5cm). Most frames were spot on, but I liked that particular image and used it. Looked good in print too.

 

Marcus Perkins Portfolio - Corporate Photographer and Documentary Photographer. Michelle Howard

 

This one however was spot on:

 

http://www.marcusperkins.co.uk/portfolio_pages/recent_work/recent_work_04.html

 

Both pictures on the Noct 1 at F1

Edited September 29, 2009 by marcusperkins

[tom0511]

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Tom, there is nothing wrong with your lens. All Noctilux 1's have focus shift when stopping down - it's just the way they are. However this is not necessarily noticeable to all when photographing three dimensional objects. In addition, you (or your subject) only have to breath in order to subtly change the focus, so it is unlikely you will nail it each time - depending of course on your level perfectionism.

 

For the record, I found the rangefinder on both my MP and M8 to be very reliable and consistent, but I still regularly missed focus (from a perfectionist point of view).

 

One way to get around the focus shift when stopping down is to focus, then adjust the focus ring a couple mm. Very easy to get a feel for it, and very reliable.

 

If you want to check the true focus accuracy of your Noct 1 and camera, you have to mount it onto a tripod, and shoot an equally static subject. Testing focus by hand will undoubtably introduce small errors as you unconsciously wobble and sway around.

 

The picture linked below is actually a little out of focus (in front by about 4-5cm). Most frames were spot on, but I liked that particular image and used it. Looked good in print too.

 

Marcus Perkins Portfolio - Corporate Photographer and Documentary Photographer. Michelle Howard

 

This one however was spot on:

 

Marcus Perkins Portfolio - Corporate Photographer and Documentary Photographer. Lymphatic Filariasis

 

Both pictures on the Noct 1 at F1

 

Hi Markus,

thank you for your answer.

adjusting the focus ring a little bit more when shooting wide open is a method I also saw as one potential solution. And it kind of worked ok. in the end I just felt that I prefered the 50lux asph- I felt more safe to get what I would expect and therefore sold my Noctilux.

 

Again-I didnt want to bash the Noctilux or any other lens - I just mentioned my experience and if others have different experience and are happy with the lens thats all what counts.

From my experience in the 35asph lux, the Nocti and the 75lux do suffer from some focus shift (at least my samples) and I feel I can see it in real life images and therefore prefer other lenses.

[henning]

I haven't tried the f/0.95, but have had the f/1 since it came out. I had the f/1.2 which I didn't care for, and the f/1 was a big improvement. I had it for about 10 years and didn't use it much for a while so I sold it. Not too much later I regretted it and bought another one, which I still have. It complements the 'Lux ASPH very nicely.

 

From what I have seen I have to agree with the previous posters; the f/0.95 is a faster 50/1.4 ASPH. The f/1 comes out when I want the f/1 look; otherwise I can live with the 'lux and pocket the change (or rather spend it on other Leica items).

 

Not mentioned is that now there is another alternative - the 50/1.1 CV, which I have tried. It renders a lot more like the f/0.95 in that it seems better corrected wide open with higher contrast. It has less focus shift than the f/1 Nocti (and it should be noted that focus shift is 95% design based with 5% due to sample variation) and is a reasonable all round lens without having the 'lux ASPH level of clinical performance. I won't be getting one because I'm happy with the 50's I have, but the Nokton is quite decent and an outstanding value. I like it a lot better than the 50/1.5 that I had for a while.

[guidomo]

Who cares about focus shift on a Noctilux? It's for shooting at f1, isn't it?

[doug_m]

The Nocti ASPH is much much more than just a faster 50 lux ASPH. Anyone who uses both for awhile should realize this.

[swamiji]

Anyone who uses both for awhile should realize this.

 

Anyone who uses broad generalizations should suffer the consequences. Everybody is entitled to there opinion...

[marcusperkins]

Who cares about focus shift on a Noctilux? It's for shooting at f1, isn't it?

 

Exactly - pretty much what I use it for most of the time. No real point in carrying such a weight around to shoot at F2

 

Whilst the New Nocti is said to be extremely capable stopped down, and in this regard undoubtably better than the Nocti 1 (focus shift also appears to have been reduced or eliminated), the real battle is at full aperture.

 

At maximum aperture the Nocti 95 has less light fall off, and according to the MTF charts, better resolution towards the edges, but resolution of the Nocti 1 is actually very good in the central areas, and may actually be similar to the 95.

 

Anybody shooting either of these lenses will know corner/edge sharpness and light fall off are largely irrelevant - and every picture I've ever seen from the both the Nocti 95 and the Nocti 1 back this up.

 

For me personally, I've tended to use the Nocti 1 primarily for when I'm stuck, and need to make something out of nothing - a portrait in a shitty road for example. For those purposes the Nocti has been worth every penny. And if mine broke, I be out like shot to buy the new one.

 

But, I'm still curious if the Nocti 95 has a fundamental advantage where it counts: at max aperture, and in the central 2/3 of the image.

 

I'm convinced that one of the reasons this thread has remained so balanced and polite is we all appreciate both lenses are masterpieces in their own right.

[swamiji]

I'm convinced that one of the reasons this thread has remained so balanced and polite is we all appreciate both lenses are masterpieces in their own right.

 

Well Spoken!

[Nikkor AIS]

Im new to this forum so first off hello to everyone. I just bought my first lecia M3(not yet received) and plan to get a Noct in the near future. I v some experience with fast lens being an owner of the Nikkor 58 1.2 Noct and a recently sold Canon 50 1.0 L i was using on my 5D2. I did exstensive shooting and some test with the Canon 50 1.0 and I can tell you that my copy was very sharp wide open and was an excellent lens in all repects, except some nasty flare at night with bright lights. The kind my Nikkot 58 1.2 Noct swallows up and spits out with ease . Especailly on my D3

What I can tell you is that neither the Nikkor 58 1.2 Noct or the Canon 50 1.0 or for that matter the new 50 .95(from the samples Iv see) have the "look" of the Lecia 50 1.0 Nocctilux that I seek. Each partitular lens has it own signature I just prefer the look of Noctilux and film.

Maby it's me but the new noctilux lens looks to perfect. :oI love the bizzare bokeh of the older verison. Im not saying that anyone one is better I just know what I like.

 

 

Kind regards

 

Gregory

[tom0511]

Exactly - pretty much what I use it for most of the time. No real point in carrying such a weight around to shoot at F2

 

.....

 

I just dont like to have to carry two 50mm lenses, one for f1.0 and the other one for f1,4 and further stepped down.

With all my critism I still have to admit that there is some magic in Nocti-images.

 

The other question I ask myself - can we judge allready the new Noctilux? Not soo many images in the net so far. Any good links to New Nocti images or even links to comparison between both lenses (I dont mean mtf charts or brickwalls but typical Noctilux images)

 

Tom

[glenerrolrd]

Roger,

thanks for the help and suggestion.

When I focus my 50 at f1.4 I can nail the focus. This leads me to the conclusion that it is not about my eyes or focusing capabilities but about lenses.

 

Shooting several images of the same portrait works - but IMO it is more like if you shoot 5 images one will be focused in a way that the focus-shift problem of the lens is compensated by random. I like to have 3 or 4 out of 5 in focus, and not 1 (eventually).

 

It was not thre ruler-test in the first place, there were unsharp eyes in the first place.

Some people may even think its user error.

 

Couple things I learned from a lot of testing and practice:

 

1. The 50 1.4 asph has such excellent contrast that many times we are looking at a small amount of front and back focusing ....and the image still looks razor sharp. Printed the image can look perfect so from a practical standpoint it spot on.

 

2. A portrait can be a difficult test because ....with the right light the eyes can look brilliant and yet the focus can be off a little. To really know if you nailed something you need some texture or a scale . Shoot a newspaper at a 45 degree angle . Spot on means the exact letter in the word. Almost forgot....be sure to be at ISO 160 and not 640 or you may not find any letter sharp with a noctilux at its closest focusing point.

 

3. Not sure what the point of shooting a portrait at 1M at F1.0 might be other than a demonstration of skill. Most of the MF portrait photographers struggle to get enough depth of field to make the portrait attractive. I find the f1.0 much more useful at 3-10M where I can still use it to isolate the subject from the background while rendering most of the face in focus.

 

4. The logic behind the short burst ..2-3 is that things change. The subject moves , the subject blinks , the photographer moves etc. If the subject is static you don t need bursts (and I am not speaking of continuous mode) but rather a thoughful series of captures. Only point is that this isn t for focus shift or photographer error as much as getting the moment.

[robsteve]

One of the secrets to focusing the Noctilux up close is to focus it on your subject, then stop moving the focus ring and just move in and out from your subject and fire when the images align. I usually use the iris of the eyes as a guide.

 

Robert

[tom0511]

Couple things I learned from a lot of testing and practice:

 

1. The 50 1.4 asph has such excellent contrast that many times we are looking at a small amount of front and back focusing ....and the image still looks razor sharp. Printed the image can look perfect so from a practical standpoint it spot on.

 

2. A portrait can be a difficult test because ....with the right light the eyes can look brilliant and yet the focus can be off a little. To really know if you nailed something you need some texture or a scale . Shoot a newspaper at a 45 degree angle . Spot on means the exact letter in the word. Almost forgot....be sure to be at ISO 160 and not 640 or you may not find any letter sharp with a noctilux at its closest focusing point.

 

3. Not sure what the point of shooting a portrait at 1M at F1.0 might be other than a demonstration of skill. Most of the MF portrait photographers struggle to get enough depth of field to make the portrait attractive. I find the f1.0 much more useful at 3-10M where I can still use it to isolate the subject from the background while rendering most of the face in focus.

 

4. The logic behind the short burst ..2-3 is that things change. The subject moves , the subject blinks , the photographer moves etc. If the subject is static you don t need bursts (and I am not speaking of continuous mode) but rather a thoughful series of captures. Only point is that this isn t for focus shift or photographer error as much as getting the moment.

 

Hi Roger,

1: as far as I see the result/image as sharp I dont even care if it is due to contrast or not.

2: However if I feel there is a focus problem I shoot either a rule or prefer to shoot a coin on a carpet at several distances, and I would usually repeat it a couple of times since there are allways few shots which include user error.

3: I do use the M8/M9 a lot for family stuff and here I do use the 50mm focal length quite often at shorter distances. If I would shoot a protrait in the 3-10m distance and wanted shallow DOF I would probably rather use a longer focal length than 50mm.

Here is a sample and I believe it even was with the Nocti at f1.0. IMO Shallow DOF can work for such images:

 

 

Another sample of short distance wide open portrait (with a Zeiss 110/2.0 on Medium Format-which should have as shallow DOF)

 

4: yes, I agree there are often movements of the subject or the photographer to lead to unsharp images/wrong focus plane and a burst helps. A lens without focus problems does however help to increase the chance to get some good images in one burst. Its clear to me that shooting shallow DOF does allways include the risk to not nail focus.

Edited September 30, 2009 by tom0511

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[fotografr]

Who cares about focus shift on a Noctilux? It's for shooting at f1, isn't it?

 

No. It's for shooting at 0.95.

 

One thing I will say about the new Noctilux is that when shooting with the M8 it seems to have lost some of the bokeh characteristics I used to love about the previous version. It does, however, turn night into day. This room was so dark I could barely see to focus.

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Edited October 1, 2009 by fotografr

[melissah]

i sent my 2 bodies (M8s) and all my lenses to DAG.

my nocti is softish.

DAG adjusted my cameras and tested my lenses as well.

when i asked him about my nocti he said...

 

I'ver seen other Noct. lenses perform better than yours & also many that performed as good as yours. Right now your lens is focusing acurately at the setting that you focus on, however, the lens is not all that sharp at it's perfect focus & there's nothing that one can do about that.

 

from this i realized that perhaps all noctis are not the same. btw my is older than the newest version, but not that old!

anyway that they might be different means that ea. photog has the opportunity to apply his signature when using the lens.

im just sayin...

id like to add that if any of you need any work done on your gear that is in DAGs range of repair/clean use him. he is awesome. i cant praise him highly enough.

best, melissa