Is inconsistent M9 distribution hurting Leica?

[BKK dan]

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Me thinks it's astonishing that Leica had the camera ready when it is announced.

 

Great marketing campaign, no months of wait, the delivery of a product with not too many hiccups.

 

What else you want?

 

Evey other product needs some 2-3 months after announcement to reach the market.

 

So even if you have to wait until December or January, that's not exactly disappointing.

[wlaidlaw]

Me thinks it's astonishing that Leica had the camera ready when it is announced.

 

Great marketing campaign, no months of wait, the delivery of a product with not too many hiccups.

 

What else you want?

 

Evey other product needs some 2-3 months after announcement to reach the market.

 

So even if you have to wait until December or January, that's not exactly disappointing.

 

I think what irritates people is the lack of or inconsistency of information. My M9 was going to be available last week but now my dealer has no idea when it might be and cannot get any information from the UK branch of Leica. If Leica was upfront and said to folks something like- "look - you can have them quick or you can have them good. We are currently building x per week and hope to ramp that up to y. Cameras ordered before or on release date should all be delivered by the last week of October. With the current waiting list we have of orders, cameras ordered now should be delivered by Christmas". Then we would all know where we were. An informed customer is a happy customer.

 

Wilson

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[wattsy]

Wilson, I bet you wish that you took that black M8 that was offered to you courtesy of Leica UK? Bird in the hand and all that...

[spylaw4]

I think what irritates people is the lack of or inconsistency of information. My M9 was going to be available last week but now my dealer has no idea when it might be and cannot get any information from the UK branch of Leica. If Leica was upfront and said to folks something like- "look - you can have them quick or you can have them good. We are currently building x per week and hope to ramp that up to y. Cameras ordered before or on release date should all be delivered by the last week of October. With the current waiting list we have of orders, cameras ordered now should be delivered by Christmas". Then we would all know where we were. An informed customer is a happy customer.

 

Wilson

 

Can't disagree with that!

 

Spare a thought in all this for your dealer - he's just as much in the dark as you are and he's the one who has to field all your enquiries! It's quite frustrating - & I should know!

[wlaidlaw]

Wilson, I bet you wish that you took that black M8 that was offered to you courtesy of Leica UK? Bird in the hand and all that...

 

You bet. I have now said I will take what ever arrives - pink, green etc.

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Can't disagree with that!

 

Spare a thought in all this for your dealer - he's just as much in the dark as you are and he's the one who has to field all your enquiries! It's quite frustrating - & I should know!

 

Brian,

 

I hope I am being very nice and supportive to my dealer. I had offers from three forum members to supply an M9 right then and now but I said no. I am only phoning my UK dealer (I am in France so to phone him keeps his costs down) once a week to gently enquire if there is any news and then sigh when there is none and ring off.

 

Wilson

[UliWer]

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I think what irritates people is the lack of or inconsistency of information. My M9 was going to be available last week but now my dealer has no idea when it might be and cannot get any information from the UK branch of Leica. If Leica was upfront and said to folks something like- "look - you can have them quick or you can have them good. We are currently building x per week and hope to ramp that up to y. Cameras ordered before or on release date should all be delivered by the last week of October. With the current waiting list we have of orders, cameras ordered now should be delivered by Christmas". Then we would all know where we were. An informed customer is a happy customer.

 

Wilson

 

When you exspect Leica knowing at which date preordered cameras can be delivered you must make sure, that all dealers act in the same way. I don't know how dealers worldwide act in practize but I can imagine, that some collect customer's orders and only forward them to Leica, if they have 10, or 20 or more, and some act differently. So it may well happen, that an older customer's order reaches Leica much later than a later one.

 

Even if there is no such problem, Leica could only tell you about the date of delivery with many ifs and ans: if there is no shortage of parts we need from other producers (e.g. sensors, LEDs, shutters), than we can exspect...

 

So would you be less impatient, if Leica gave you an estimated date with so many caveats?

 

(Apple is a much more potent company than Leica, and producing a software-CD may be a little bit easier than producing a M9. SnowLeopard was first on sale on 08/28. At the biggest German retailer for Apple products it was sold out on the first day. They could not tell when they were able to deliver it again, not in days, weeks or months; Apple had some issues with producing the CD in Ireland; suddenly last week it was in the shop again without any preannouncement. The same had happened for the new iPhone 3GS some months before...).

[wlaidlaw]

When you exspect Leica knowing at which date preordered cameras can be delivered you must make sure, that all dealers act in the same way. I don't know how dealers worldwide act in practize but I can imagine, that some collect customer's orders and only forward them to Leica, if they have 10, or 20 or more, and some act differently. So it may well happen, that an older customer's order reaches Leica much later than a later one.

 

Even if there is no such problem, Leica could only tell you about the date of delivery with many ifs and ans: if there is no shortage of parts we need from other producers (e.g. sensors, LEDs, shutters), than we can exspect...

 

So would you be less impatient, if Leica gave you an estimated date with so many caveats?

 

(Apple is a much more potent company than Leica, and producing a software-CD may be a little bit easier than producing a M9. SnowLeopard was first on sale on 08/28. At the biggest German retailer for Apple products it was sold out on the first day. They could not tell when they were able to deliver it again, not in days, weeks or months; Apple had some issues with producing the CD in Ireland; suddenly last week it was in the shop again without any preannouncement. The same had happened for the new iPhone 3GS some months before...).

 

Sorry - disagree with you. Leica dealers should have some idea of what is happening and the two I have spoken to don't and are unhappy about it. It would not hurt Leica to explain what the cause of any delay is. I am sure they have a very good reason for it. People are always more reasonable/relaxed if they are kept in the picture.

 

Just because Apple does something, is not a reason for Leica to copy them. As Apple have got bigger, they have become far less customer orientated. Just to quote an example, they are still denying that there is a major bug in Snow Leopard (finder error 10810) which prevents many Macs with an attached external drive waking from sleep. I was speaking to Freecom yesterday and they are disappointed with Apple's poor response to the issue, where Freecom are having to field complaints from their customers.

 

Wilson

[george_b]

The biggest irritation is living in a vacuum, when will they be delivered? Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year? Just inform me please. Don't forget that UK VAT goes up on 1st January 2010 to 17.5% from 15%, I would be 'rather annoyed' to have to pay for mine at the new VAT rate!

I would be more forgiving but what about the 9/9/9 hype, if you talk a good story then you must also act a good story. If I were spending a shed load of money for an S1 then I guess I would damn well demand to know when or go else where to another brand.

Still I have an M8 and my trusty Canon DSLRs so my photography won't stand still - so I guess there is little point in beating myself up about it, it will arrive when Leica sees fit. I just hope it will be A1 and without deffects, issues and the known issues resolved when delivered.

[erl]

George, what are the known issues with the M9? mine has none. What should I be looking for?

[Shootist]

George, what are the known issues with the M9? mine has none. What should I be looking for?

 

Does your M9 place the cameras seriel number in the EXIF so it is seen by raw converters?

There has been lock ups when shooting in C mode or when taking several shots quickly in S (Single (note the Stupid S)) mode.

There have also been sensors with a line in them.

[george_b]

George, what are the known issues with the M9? mine has none. What should I be looking for?

 

See the reply after my posting, if you read though the threads on the forum you will get the same flavour as I have. Until I have one to use it is third hand information, it is just that after the hype and disscussions posted here I would expect Leica to get them sorted before I get mine - maybe that's why there seems to be a delay in delivering?

[michael friedberg]

I think what irritates people is the lack of or inconsistency of information.

 

Exactly. My initial question was about inconsistency, and not insufficiency of product. Of course, thousands of camera bodies aren't and can't be ready to be shipped on the first day or even the first few weeks.

 

I also would add that the inconsistency exists on both a dealer (micro) level and a world-wide (macro) level. Dealers have no good idea exactly when they might receive how many. And some markets get some product before others, in a manner than seems haphazard (there were reports if I recall of one dealer in Melbourne, Australia, who received seven --contrast that to anyone in the US).

 

The issue is whether better planning for shipment among a diverse world-wide base, and better information about those plans and their implementation, would help Leica. The issue is not whether there's enough of a queue for there to be sales even if there are some drop-offs, but rather whether poor logistics loses some sales and that detriments the company. The issue is whether more consistent standards for dealers would help.

 

When people ask "what more could you expect?" or "isnt it great that they have cameras already" that, with respect, misses the point. The issue is whether planning and communication, for a company of Leica's size could be improved: that is, whether distribution should be as good as the marketing department. And if this query is critical, it is intended constructively.

[stevelap]

I can understand frustration, of course, but this is all getting a little silly. Leica announced the M9 on the 9th as expected and the camera was available for sale, albeit in limited numbers, on the 10th. For those in the UK at least, if you were able to get up to London there were cameras available.

 

This feeding frenzy due to the scarcity of a new product is hardly surprising, it happens with Canon and Nikon too, and Leica is a small company remember. Yes, perhaps communication could be improved but, please, give them time and resist the temptation to vent your frustration by giving them an internet flogging.

 

For me at least, the M9 and its unexpected introduction is a welcome success for Leica.

[erl]

Does your M9 place the cameras seriel number in the EXIF so it is seen by raw converters?

There has been lock ups when shooting in C mode or when taking several shots quickly in S (Single (note the Stupid S)) mode.

There have also been sensors with a line in them.

 

No, the M9 does not put the serial numner in the exif. But neither do my M8's. So WTF. I never noticed till you made me look for it! How is that "an issue"? To me, an issue is some sort of fault that can't be explained or fixed.

 

Lock ups etc that you refer to have not happened to mine. I don't know of others cameras doing this but you state they have occurred. I have to accept that on face value. Sensors with lines! Well again, how many and is it typical or indicative of a basic flaw, or just normal production line aberrations that occur anywhere manufacturing takes place? I don't know the answers to these questions. Do you? Lets not call them "issues" unless they really are prevalent. My belief (without inside knowledge) is that they are not.

[erl]

See the reply after my posting, if you read though the threads on the forum you will get the same flavour as I have. Until I have one to use it is third hand information, it is just that after the hype and discussions posted here I would expect Leica to get them sorted before I get mine - maybe that's why there seems to be a delay in delivering?

 

George, I do read threads but obviously not all. Seems we are reading different threads. Remember that human nature is quick to report 'bad' news, but slow or even negligent to report 'good' news. What I mean is that there are (I assume) a hell of a lot of good outcomes not reported that will outweigh the bad reports that people are so quick to produce.

[Shootist]

No, the M9 does not put the serial numner in the exif. But neither do my M8's. So WTF. I never noticed till you made me look for it! How is that "an issue"? To me, an issue is some sort of fault that can't be explained or fixed.

 

Lock ups etc that you refer to have not happened to mine. I don't know of others cameras doing this but you state they have occurred. I have to accept that on face value. Sensors with lines! Well again, how many and is it typical or indicative of a basic flaw, or just normal production line aberrations that occur anywhere manufacturing takes place? I don't know the answers to these questions. Do you? Lets not call them "issues" unless they really are prevalent. My belief (without inside knowledge) is that they are not.

 

 

Well all 4 of the M8's I've had, and all the M8 everyone else has had, does put the camera serial number in the EXIF data. You just aren't using a program that can see this data with the M8.

 

You asked for bugs, inconsistencies, in the M9 and I was just pointing out a few that I have read about on this forum.

Just recently someone with a M8 had the run on flaw in the shutter, where the shutter keeps winding, recocking, which is a known flaw and Leica charge him to fix it.

This rewinding/recocking problem has been posted about many times. But in your analogy it doesn't exsist because it hasn't happened to your camera.

 

Whatever.

Call them what you like. That does not mean they don't exsist.

[Shootist]

George, I do read threads but obviously not all. Seems we are reading different threads. Remember that human nature is quick to report 'bad' news, but slow or even negligent to report 'good' news. What I mean is that there are (I assume) a hell of a lot of good outcomes not reported that will outweigh the bad reports that people are so quick to produce.

 

Well I will give you this. There are more posts on this forum on how good the M9 is and only a few about what might be the problems, bugs, inconsistencies, with the M9.

 

If you remember with the M8 all of the first reviews, and users that were given cameras, never mentioned the green blobs and the IR problem until normal users found them in cameras they paid for and posted about it.

 

Then all of them said we saw it but Leica said it would be fixed in shipping cameras.

 

There are so few M9 in users hands that the bugs might just be slight inconsistencies and users that are seeing them figure it will be fixed in a firmware update.

[guidomo]

My UK dealer informs me that "some of the 3200 parts that make up the camera are on back order". Not sure if this is common knowledge.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[erl]

I never claimed "they don't exist". I actually queried if they were known issues. Now if your reading of threads and other searches are more extensive than mine (quite possible and acknowledged) and have established these events as 'issues' rather than isolated events, so be it. I am not one to retreat into denial.

 

As for claiming it hasn't happened to my camera so it doesn't exist is your statement, not mine. I simply stated that it has not happened to mine. I did accept you observation about others having it happen.

 

Regarding the EXIF recording. I use C1. That does not report serial number for any of my cams. Don't know if that is a fault somewhere or just the nature of C1. I don't see it as important. Never worried me when I shot film. Still doesn't. It may be an 'issue' for some but I don't know why.

 

I think the normal process for the introduction of a new model of anything always has teething problems so lets see what settles out of the dust in the near future.