Noise

[ulrikft]

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Do yourself a favor and DO block me. To be frank, the launch of the new camera has brought quite a lot of extra 'noise' to the forum in the shape of people wanting to appear more important than they really are. I find your attitude tiresome; your posts often abrasive; you've made certain claims and then not backed them up (such as the files that LCT actually wanted to see).

 

I can see that you're pretty good at turning stuff around to make it look like you're the reasonable one and that everyone around you is a troublemaker - believe me, I've seen the type before around the net, and you're a good example.

 

I know that I can get pretty annoying myself - plenty of people here can attest to that - but at the very least I do own Leica equipment, which you appear not to, and I wonder to be honest why you suddenly became such a vocal and strident participant of the M9 forum when you've said yourself you can't afford to buy the camera.

 

In other words, you can't substantiate your claims, and you go on with personal attacks instead. My point is well made.

[JHAG]

IMy point is well made.

 

Which is ?

[plasticman]

In other words, you can't substantiate your claims, and you go on with personal attacks instead. My point is well made.

 

Ok - I'm gonna block you now - so this is it for the absolutely worthless mud-slinging that no-one else is interested in. People can see for themselves the way you've behaved since your first post, and I'm sure I'm not alone in finding your contribution repetitive, aggressive and puerile.

 

My advice to you is to dial it back a bit, stop lecturing everyone and accusing others of being passive-aggressive or generally stating that you've seen "few signs of good faith in this forum so far" or that venerable members like LCT "obfuscates and acts like a troublemaker".

 

There are some characters on this forum, and I like a good argument with the best of them, but you are not one of those.

 

Now I guess you should run along down to the store to take some more photos with the M9 and prove what a constructive and positive member of the forum you are - some people do need that sort of character reinforcement.

 

Remember - I block you, you block me, and we never ever need to cross paths again.

[jaapv]

Remind me not to quote either of you

[plasticman]

Remind me not to quote either of you

 

Darnit it's actually so long since I blocked anyone (if I ever have?) that I can't remember where to do it.

Oh well - I'm wasting time. Looking back at the original grossly underexposed images in the first post reminds me again what a worthless thread it's been from the beginning.

 

Anyway, if anything is definite about the M9, it's that the noise characteristics are pretty good at higher ISOs. I personally like some noise in my images, so correctly exposed it looks like the M9 does give a lot more leeway than the M8, if noisier than some of the cameras out there. Having said that, these days I find I prefer my low-light M8 shots to my Nikon output - as Jamie used to say to me (and I didn't totally believe him) the M8 can manage if you really nail it.

[Shootist]

Darnit it's actually so long since I blocked anyone (if I ever have?) that I can't remember where to do it.

Oh well - I'm wasting time. Looking back at the original grossly underexposed images in the first post reminds me again what a worthless thread it's been from the beginning.

 

Anyway, if anything is definite about the M9, it's that the noise characteristics are pretty good at higher ISOs. I personally like some noise in my images, so correctly exposed it looks like the M9 does give a lot more leeway than the M8, if noisier than some of the cameras out there. Having said that, these days I find I prefer my low-light M8 shots to my Nikon output - as Jamie used to say to me (and I didn't totally believe him) the M8 can manage if you really nail it.

 

 

You can go to your User Control Panel and on the left hand side of the screen select Edtit Ignore list and type in his user name. Or you can right click (Or use to be able) on his user name in any post and select add to Ignore list. If that doesn't work you can do it by clicking on his name in any post, that takes you to his porfile and somewhere on that page there is a link to add him to your Ignore list.

 

Hope this helps.

[ulrikft]

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Which is ?

 

In this case, that plasticman is not really interested in my test methodology, but in attacking me personally. Anyone can make long tirades with high noise and low signal. I prefer to at least try to make some signal, and avoid the noise. You can, of course, roll your eyes as much as you want.

 

The case here in general, is that I have posted pictures, I have disclosed any relevant information about how the pictures were taken, what I did to them, why I did it to them, and what I think they signify.

 

What do I get in return? "you are too poor" or "this is dubious". Not "this is dubious beacause" or "your financial situation is relevant beacause".. just random angry comments from someone that seems to not understand why i test as I do, and that does not seem very interested in finding out.

[jaapv]

Well, I would be most interested in the following test:

Shoot a Greta Macbeth test chart, and crop to the same pixel size, which makes for a different scale, and secondly do the same with one image uprezzed to the same scale.

Then do the same at -2, -1, 0, +1 stops.

Process in ACR in identical workflows with all sharpening and noise reduction off.

[ulrikft]

Well, I would be most interested in the following test:

Shoot a Greta Macbeth test chart, and crop to the same pixel size, which makes for a different scale, and secondly do the same with one image uprezzed to the same scale.

Then do the same at -2, -1, 0, +1 stops.

Process in ACR in identcal workflows with all sharpening and noise reduction off.

 

That i can do. I just have to order the chart first, but when that is done and it has arrived, I can test that.

[plasticman]

You can go to your User Control Panel and on the left hand side of the screen select Edtit Ignore list and type in his user name. Or you can right click (Or use to be able) on his user name in any post and select add to Ignore list. If that doesn't work you can do it by clicking on his name in any post, that takes you to his porfile and somewhere on that page there is a link to add him to your Ignore list.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks Shootist - it really does. So difficult to just let it go sometimes, as one should. And what then happens is that the whole forum descends into childish point-scoring and arguments. So utterly boring for everyone. Luckily I don't mind so much that this particular thread was derailed, as it was pretty bogus from the outset.

 

PS: Done!

[jaapv]

I think you will find nobody will question your methodology then. Well, they will , but with less cause.

[lct]

First time i respond to a post like this for a couple of years. Quite refreshing. Reminds me of the 'old' Leica forum.

I wondered if you had an agenda posting a noisy pic like yours, seen this been there with other Leica bodies previously.

But i could not be sure of course, so i asked for the raw file of this very picture, not those you've taken 4 days later needless to say.

I just wanted to demonstrate that this pic could be more than acceptable with miminum fairness, i.e. developed with decent raw converters.

Oh well...

 

I'll try to answer in good faith, in spite of your obvious need to stir up trouble.

1) I said that I would give you the raw files from the last shoot, and you did get them, all of them. It is a simple matter of checking exif if you want one particular image. If you don't want to do that, stop asking for raw files. I have even given you different explanations for why the first file might have ended up as it did.

2) ACR... Lightroom and CS4 both use it. The first image used CS4, the last Lightroom, CS4 AND C1, without the result differing much.

Please stop the passive agressive attitude, it is tiresome.

[lct]

In the meantime, you won't object to my posting one of your later 1600 iso pics hopefully. FF & 100% crops. Default settings of C1 v4.1, 'DNG File Neutral' profile, -40 red saturation, -40 magenta saturation. No further noise correction needed. Color tweakings are due to the fact that my version of C1 does not support the M9. FWIW.

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[Aleran]

Imho, I believe that ulrikft is showing what Stefan Daniel said in the interview in New York City on 09/09/09. The explanation is in this box:

Q: What was the reasoning behind making ISO 2500 the limit for the M9?

DANIEL: Because the quality over 2500 would simply not be satisfying.

Q:You have Nikon’s D3 and D700 which that give you this extreme 25,000, which looks pretty bad but is still potentially useful. Why not give the user that option?

DANIEL: That may come in the future. But for this time to get it ready to get also a clean image out we had to stop at 2500.

 

These words let us understand that for Leica was very important to get to the full frame sensor. Thanks to the excellence of the optics, Leica is sure that M9 will produce excellent results, despite the sensor is not the best.

The quality will come later, with more updates that will be the basis for the release of new models.

[tjv]

Well, I would be most interested in the following test:

Shoot a Greta Macbeth test chart, and crop to the same pixel size, which makes for a different scale, and secondly do the same with one image uprezzed to the same scale.

Then do the same at -2, -1, 0, +1 stops.

Process in ACR in identical workflows with all sharpening and noise reduction off.

 

Not quite what you've asked for but pretty close: LINK

 

I think the M9 does pretty well FWIW but from experience the Nikon files I've got seem to retain more dynamic range at mid to high ISO's. I think the M9 may be better at base.

[ulrikft]

First time i respond to a post like this for a couple of years. Quite refreshing. Reminds me of the 'old' Leica forum.

I wondered if you had an agenda posting a noisy pic like yours, seen this been there with other Leica bodies previously.

But i could not be sure of course, so i asked for the raw file of this very picture, not those you've taken 4 days later needless to say.

I just wanted to demonstrate that this pic could be more than acceptable with miminum fairness, i.e. developed with decent raw converters.

Oh well...

 

So, I have an agenda (presumably to show that Leica is bad at high iso), and I try to show that by saying "ignore this bad pic, these new ones show that the Leica M9 is great at high isos, better than people believe"....? Please, you are way off base, call off the witch hunt find someone else to bother. You showed similar results as I, and I think that is great for this body.

[erl]

So I get out of my bed to find two guys slugging it out needlessly. I hope you have both put your argument to bed, and yourselves. Sleep on it and relax. I don't want to have to intervene.