adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #21 Posted September 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Doc Henry, I hope you'll permit me to piggyback on your thread. Here are samples of the 15mm C/V 15mm f/4.5 on my M8(.1), and my 21 Elmarit on the M9. First - center crops: Outside of the overall image size, the main IQ difference I see is the M8/15 starts to show some moire/mazing in the vertical ribs of the decorative band along the building Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96811-m9-versus-m81-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1035335'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Hi adan, Take a look here M9 versus M8.1 tests. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #22 Posted September 14, 2009 Next, the full frames, just for reference. M8/15 shows more on the left side, M9.21 shows more on the right (just to tell them apart) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96811-m9-versus-m81-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1035341'>More sharing options...
adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #23 Posted September 14, 2009 And here are crops from the left-center of the image: larger image is M9, both 100% crops Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96811-m9-versus-m81-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1035346'>More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 14, 2009 Share #24 Posted September 14, 2009 The vertical lines in the transformer (?) below the lights are more clearly defined in the M9 shot, but isn't that what we'd expect given the larger sensor? Am I missing something here? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaikit thanakamanusorn Posted September 14, 2009 Share #25 Posted September 14, 2009 From Adan test i can see very clearly the benefit of fullframe M9... thank you:) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl4069 Posted September 14, 2009 Share #26 Posted September 14, 2009 I would be interested in anyone from the M8 is as good camp to come along right about now? What do the M8 believers have to say? Do most smaller sized images still render just about the same? Lets get the debate into gear. Or maybe Andy put this as a new thread? J Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #27 Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, true, Steve - a test often confirms "conventional wisdom" - but there's a difference between "expecting" and "knowing". Maybe we're just talking at cross-purposes (not you specifically - the whole thread.) The M8 and the M9 both use a Kodak silicon CCD with 6.8-micron pixels. I never expected the pixels to look one iota different between the cameras (especially once I've had a chance to profile the Mine to the same level of color accuracy as I have the Mate over 3 years) - and generally they don't and they won't. (Maybe at the higher ISOs, which I did not compare, I confess!) So, outside of clearer definiton of details, what else was there to look for? Edited September 14, 2009 by adan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 14, 2009 Share #28 Posted September 14, 2009 Well, true, Steve - a test often confirms "conventional wisdom" - but there's a difference between "expecting" and "knowing" Andy, sorry if I came across a bit too abrupt. Blame it on the Cote du Rhone <grin>. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 14, 2009 Share #29 Posted September 14, 2009 Côte du Rhone is a good excuse for anything! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 15, 2009 Share #30 Posted September 15, 2009 Oh - I meant to post this little "Wilcommen" from my M8 to the dawn of the M9; Brocken spectre and waning moon shot at the highest point on Interstate 80, enroute to Salt Lake City at the precise time the Webcast was going live (9:09 EDT, 7:09 MDT, 09/09/09). M8, 15 C/V. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96811-m9-versus-m81-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1035382'>More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 15, 2009 Share #31 Posted September 15, 2009 From Adan test i can see very clearly the benefit of fullframe M9... thank you:) Sorry but what was test so far are lenses. Clearly the CV 15 f/4.5 is a inferior lens compared to the Leica 21 Elmarit, even the non ASPH version (which is what I think was used). All this proves is the lenses are different and the M9 captures more then the M8 when used with the same lens, as everyone has had to use a wider lens on the M8 and even then the M9 captures more. You need to use the same lens on both cameras, mounted on a tripod and then make the same size crop, IE getting the exact same subjects in the final image. If M9 owners want to stroke there egos that's fine. But I would like to see a real test. Not just a lens test. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 15, 2009 Share #32 Posted September 15, 2009 What would that prove - that the M8 pixels are the same size as the M9 pixels? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 15, 2009 Share #33 Posted September 15, 2009 What would that prove - that the M8 pixels are the same size as the M9 pixels? Well they are basically the same size, the pixels themshelves. In the M9 there is just more of them. I hope everyone understand what I'm getting at. You simply can't test sensor/image quality using two different focal length lenses and certainly not two different focal length lenses made by two different manufacturers. Yes certainly the M9 cpatures a larger image with each FL lens but that has nothing to do with the final quality of the image. I have proposed a method to make a real comparison It in a post above. In doing that you will take a M9 image and crop out the extra pixels so the final M9 image is the same size as a M8 image and has the exact same subjects/scene in it, no more (wider) or less. This will give you a true test of whether or not the M9 images are any clearer, sharper, then a M8 image. I suspect they will be exactly the same. Showing the same detail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl4069 Posted September 15, 2009 Share #34 Posted September 15, 2009 And yet on other threads here we get posters who believe there really are fundamental differences...seems like there is more to study on this subject... Re: The M9 three days on... Quote: Originally Posted by efftee Jamie, can you elaborate please? I want so much to believe you. Sure! Happy to. If you don't 'get it' from the list, let me know and I'll elaborate more clearly when I get time (off to do some shooting--it's still wedding season!) Ways IMO the M9 is a tremendous improvement over the M8: no green streak artifacts. This alone has been a showstopper for many of my colleagues, and yes, I've lost shots to it as well (4 times over 3 years). I regret losing those shots, but none were a deal-breaker. But then, I'm not Jeff Ascough, and I've had to cover myself shooting R or Canon or Nikon as well... just in case the conditions were ripe for unfixable artifacts. With the M9, for the first time, I'm considering shooting all M. Full-frame. Can't tell you what it's like to be so backed into a corner with a Leica 21, 24 or 28 that I can't get the shot. Also how hard it is to get speed wide. Heck, I couldn't even get 35 1.4 equivalent!! On the M9, my 35 Lux will rule One stop *right now* better noise--without sacrificing any printable detail from the glass!! This is awesome, since up to ISO 1000, the M8 was only a wee bit behind my D3. But 1250 on the M8 was dodgy; 2500 unusable. The few poorly lit (IE real-world) samples I've seen from the M9 have already convinced me it's brilliant; printing will be excellent to 1600, which is more than a stop better than the 640 I rely on all the time. Colour can be excellent. C1 handles better than the M8--don't know why, but I suspect Kodak has created a truly amazing sensor that my Nikon, for example, can't touch. Needs profiles obviously, but the first firmware is so much better than the original M8's is so impressive, and will get better; Jenoptic knows their stuff. Uncompressed 14bpp RAWs!!! Can I put more exclamation marks there? This means, at last, the promise of DMR-like file quality in a high res. package. Better electronics. Haven't heard about any lockups yet. All the ergonomic improvements quieter shutter than M8u; quieter shutter release than the M8.2 Those are the big ones for me. I can't believe there is no PC flash connection on the camera but that's about the only drawback I can see. I'll live with it, thanks. __________________ James H (Jamie) Roberts Site: James Roberts Photography Blog: Photography behind the scenes Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 15, 2009 Share #35 Posted September 15, 2009 Oh - OK - yes, that is the assumption I was working on all along. Except maybe at higher ISOs (which I didn't test head-to-head even with different lenses) I never expected M9 pixels to be anything other than M8 pixels, except in minutiae BTW as a peace offering - in the new Stephan Daniels video at LL (An Interview with Leica's Stephan DanielKarbe) - 1) He confirms hat the M9 pixel architecture is the same as the M8, except for adifferent red Bayer dye... ...and 2) He ALSO confirms, as we tried so hard to explain 3 weeks ago or so, that the M8 (and M9) viewfinder magnification of .68x IS REQUIRED BY THE EXTRA THICKNESS OF THE CAMERA BODIES. (about minutes 11-12 in the video). Of course, he's only Leica's product manager - what does he know..... jl4069: and Jamie is right. But in that list you quote, only TWO items have anything to do with pixel-vs-pixel comparisons ("One stop better noise..." and, - maybe, "Colour can be excellent" which can't be judged yet anyway until we have good profiles, and certainly not by comparing 2 pixels together) Everything else on that list has nothing to do with sensor performance - it all has to do with other parts of the camera, or with the full-frame dimensions of the sensor No contradiction there at all, and I agree with everything that Jamie says. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 15, 2009 Share #36 Posted September 15, 2009 BTW as a peace offering - in the new Stephan Daniels video at LL (An Interview with Leica's Stephan DanielKarbe) - 1) He confirms hat the M9 pixel architecture is the same as the M8, except for adifferent red Bayer dye... ...and 2) He ALSO confirms, as we tried so hard to explain 3 weeks ago or so, that the M8 (and M9) viewfinder magnification of .68x IS REQUIRED BY THE EXTRA THICKNESS OF THE CAMERA BODIES. (about minutes 11-12 in the video). Of course, he's only Leica's product manager - what does he know..... No peace offring needed, at least not for me. I did see your other post in that thread about that subject. But I bet there are still those that will say the body thickness has nothing to do with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 15, 2009 Share #37 Posted September 15, 2009 ...You simply can't test sensor/image quality using two different focal length lenses and certainly not two different focal length lenses made by two different manufacturers... Agree. Andy, nothing personal of course but i read your posts above as a CV vs Leica lenses comparison. They tell me nothing about M9 and M8 sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 15, 2009 Share #38 Posted September 15, 2009 It's OK, lct - they tell me EVERYTHING I need to know - Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 15, 2009 Share #39 Posted September 15, 2009 It's OK, lct - they tell me EVERYTHING I need to know - I'm happy for you then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share #40 Posted September 15, 2009 Doc Henry, I hope you'll permit me to piggyback on your thread. Here are samples of the 15mm C/V 15mm f/4.5 on my M8(.1), and my 21 Elmarit on the M9. First - center crops: Outside of the overall image size, the main IQ difference I see is the M8/15 starts to show some moire/mazing in the vertical ribs of the decorative band along the building Andy no problem Welcome for your photos : it is the object of the thread....a debate is launched Best regards Henry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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