Who would like an interchangeable-lense X2?

[Lewis]

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I too think it would have been nice if the lenses were interchangeable on the X1. Not essential but it would have been a nice option. An 'X System' as a cheaper alternative to the M System would be cool - good to get younger photographers into the Leica brand, for students/non rich people who have the passion and appreciation for such mechanics, but not a sky high budget for an M System Camera. It's a beautiful camera, but since i sold my D Lux 3 and bought a Ricoh GRD 2 a few years ago I haven't looked back in terms of performance. I really love the GRD 2 and it is excellent to use as a 'street' or 'go anywhere' camera. So simple, great performance and almost zero shutter lag (something that drove me nuts on the D lux 3). I would however like to return to the Leica brand again, as their simple minimalist design, beautiful build quality and image quality is something that i've always appreciated about these cameras - old fashioned is good! i also admire the fine workmanship on all the Leica cameras as i'm sure you all do. My thinking is that something has to look good as well as perform well (sadly my Ricoh is nice, but it wouldn't win a beauty contest sat next to a Leica!)

But having read some very in depth reviews on the X1 it seems Leica, although they've created a nice P&S camera with great build quality, seem to have overlooked some of the essentials that the average person after one of these camera may require - ie; quick shutter, different lens choice (if we are being picky), a lock mechanism on the dials so as they don't turn every time you remove the camera from a tight pocket (another beef I had with the d lux 3) and a sharp accurate LCD screen. I think it's a combination of these things, coupled with the exceedingly high price (when you consider the alternatives) that will make me simply not choose to invest in this camera, which is sad, as I really do love almost everything about it, with the exception of the major gripes (which I feel are too important to ignore at this price range).

 

I hope even the bias Leica users will see that as a fair synopsis.

[Vip]

Completely agree

[jsrockit]

Lewis, it is fair that you don't want to spend your money on the X1 for the reasons you stated... but I think it is a lot to ask from Leica to make a whole new lens mount / lens design for a camera that will only exist a few years. Leica is not in the cheap camera business unfortunately. I read the other day somewhere that Leica's biggest customers are rich people, not professionals....so, a $2000 camera is cheap to those folks. If you are thrifty, you ignore the X1. I'm not rich at all. However, the X1 is the camera I've been waiting for. 35mm is my favorite lens length, I don't mind composing with AF and a LCD, it has only the most basic of functions (shutter speed dial, aperture dial, minimal menu), and it suits the way I generally work (i.e. slow) while offering great IQ. If you are buying digital cameras right now, everything is going to depreciate a lot. Leica tends to depreciate slower at least. If you want a Leica deal, you buy a film M.

[lct]

We may like or dislike it folks but missing interchangeable lenses on the X1 boils down to regretting that the Minilux could not fit M lenses in the ninetees IMHO.

Different beasts, different markets. Leica's been selling compact cameras with fixed lenses for 20 years at least (Mini, Mini 2, Mini 3, Mini Zoom, C1, C2, C3, C11, Minilux, Minilux Zoom, CM, PanaLeicas).

Launching a digital compact does not mean that Leica renounce to sell a digital CL for ever.

[Vip]

The point is different. Until Leica will offer on interchangeable lens system only on an S2 with the star price or an M9 that is not so user friendly for people that were trained on point and shot or autofocus cameras will be very difficult to have new and YOUNG customers on the brand.

I would not like to be the last of the many in a shop asking a Leica like is happening in toys shops when you look at car models.

X2 with a small serie of interchangeable lens, or a GF1 like like can be a different price field for the larger area of customer who wish easy to use camera at an affordable price. If there is a field for Dlux 4 that has a limited zoom not so small or pocketable that means that there is a space for quality in a field where competitors offer similar camera at a significant lower price, smaller, with more gadget but not with the same quality.

If someone is still buying a Clux3 when competitors are offering much smaller price there is a field for X2 with a zoom or interchangeable lens

[lct]

I was just responding about the X1. A X2 with interchangeable lenses would be a different camera of course. Problem is who would pay $3K or so for it now that a mint M8 can be had for the same price on the second hand market?

Fixed zoom lenses are another matter IMHO. We can expect that the X1 will have a little zoom soon or late the same way as previous compact Leicas like C1, C2, C3, Minilux Zoom or CM Zoom.

[Vip]

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Still the point is different. Who will buy an used M8 has to be trained to MANUAL: focus, exposure, predict the real image from a small overimposed frame in the viewfinder.

This is not the frequent customer you can see in shops. Otherwise the selling % of Leica M should has a different impact on the market just because price is not so different for used Dig M than top class AF japan cameras.

I am photographer since I was 12. I had Leica since I was 30 yrs old. Now I have 2 boys ( 23, and 19) and 1 girl ( 16). The grew up with Leica as an idol. But now..... The use my Dlux!

Nobody want to even discuss about an M. Too slow complicate for them.

Their generation want digital and AF. This a reality we can not change most of the young take picture with a cellular phone. If they taste an Leica quality with time they will discover the rest. I see them sometimes using my cameras , but for a shot, not more. I takes time an a bridge camera.

[DrVorzet]

What I want to see in an X2.

 

No Zoom

a faster lens f/2.0

No interchangeable lenses

 

 

 

Me too !

 

(a 35mm f/2.0 would be perfect)

[lct]

...Their generation want digital and AF....

They can have that with the X1 and PanaLeicas right now. May be to-morrow with the X1 Zoom as well. I would try to teach them how to use a true camera though. I did not succeed with my youngs either to me honest.

[LuxBob]

An X1 with an interchangeable lens would be a completely different animal and could undermine the sales of more expensive models.

What mount would the lens have. It coudln't be M as to mainatin the rprice level the lens would have to be ridiculously cheap (I speak in Leica terms) and taht creates an immediate conflict. If it were to have a differnet mount it woudl mean higher tooling costs and put up the cost. I do nnot see how they coudl make it all work at this price level (remember we are talking in Leica price terms). Maybe a zoom but for me you tehn lose compactness.

No, I like the fixed lens/price ratio and just hope taht they fix the small probs and add an in body viewfinder.

[Vip]

I do not agree! Look at summarit lens: This can be ( read LFI) together to used camera a way to enlarge the attraction of M the system.

In X2 could be the same: a different family lens ( the same happens in 4/3 family for the g panasonic series where Leica produce excellent lens for it.

X2 do not need a series of 10 or more lens 2 or 3 is more than needed!

[alexc]

What I want to see in an X2.

 

No Zoom

a faster lens f/2.0

No interchangeable lenses

 

 

 

Me too !

 

(a 35mm f/2.0 would be perfect)

 

 

aperture control on the lens and ISO dial on top

[felipe-m]

An X1 with an interchangeable lens would be a completely different animal and could undermine the sales of more expensive models.

What mount would the lens have. It coudln't be M as to mainatin the rprice level the lens would have to be ridiculously cheap (I speak in Leica terms) and taht creates an immediate conflict. If it were to have a differnet mount it woudl mean higher tooling costs and put up the cost. I do nnot see how they coudl make it all work at this price level (remember we are talking in Leica price terms). Maybe a zoom but for me you tehn lose compactness.

No, I like the fixed lens/price ratio and just hope taht they fix the small probs and add an in body viewfinder.

 

I don't agree either, several reasons have been stated already in this thread. But I would add one more. An X2 camera with the possibility of interchangeable lenses in M-mount could actually be cheaper and better for many people, and therefore increase sales, assuming the body only is cheaper than the integrated X1 body-lens. It would be cheaper for:

 

1) People that already have M-mount lenses or those who plan to buy them anyway for their Ms, and want a back-up that is cheaper, smaller and newer than the discontinued M8.

 

2) People new to the M-mount, on a budget, but with access to the large cheap/used M-mount lenses, especially from other cheaper brands.

 

3) Also, the possibility to use M-glass would go a long way in justifying the exhorbitant price tag the X1 currently has, especially in the face of stiff competiton from Panasonic, Olympus, etc. and the limitations shown in various reviews (slow AF, unreliable MF, slow buffer and general functionning, etc.). If the X1 doesn't take off, no prices (pardon the pun) for guessing why that was...

But I hope it does take off to make an X2, any kind of improved X2, more likely

 

Also, as stated before in the thread, An X2 would not be full-frame so it would'nt really compete with the M9. Just a look at the line-ups of the other camera makers, shows that the internal competiton argument is not valid there either. It may compete a bit with the used M8 market, which is itself a real competitor of Leica, and which is positioned between the X1 and M9. So, with an interchangeable X2 system, Leica would actually have a way of reclaiming more of that market.

Is all this completely unreasonable?

[h00ligan]

No, not at all. I think you make a very valid point. Just because canon has the 5d mk II they don't limit to no other dslr's. If you want to buy L glass to use on your rebel so be it. I agree that it would claim market share - and also lock people into Leica as a brand more gently than say - an m9. Why not sell a body like the x1 for 1500 - and allow m mount. buy a 'cheap' leica lens new and you'd be selling a 3k system - minimum. Every lens added adds to the chance someone will drop even more cash for an m9 or similar later - and you could double or triple the market for your lenses.

 

Makes perfect sense - i'm not sure why they don't have this option in their lineup - even if it's not the x series... why not offer both? I can only assume they can't afford R&D on that many projects at one time - because cannibalized sales doesn't seem to be a logical argument against.

[jsrockit]

Is all this completely unreasonable?

 

Sure, but I'm just not convinced that Leica is trying to be a consumer camera company like the micro 4/3's camera manufactuers are. If they were, they would have just adopted the GF-1 and called it the X1. I think Leica is smart with what they've done with the X1. The fixed lens scenario allows them to make sure the lens / sensor combo works flawlessly together and the crop factor doesn't come into play. The u4/3's cameras don't use M lenses in a seemless way since even a 25mm lens becomes a normal 50mm... it's ok, but not perfect.

[lct]

...Is all this completely unreasonable?

As reasonable as asking an M mount for the Minilux 10 years ago i guess. Leica had renounced to renew the CL experience then. Will we have a digital CL some day? That is que question.

[felipe-m]

As reasonable as asking an M mount for the Minilux 10 years ago i guess. Leica had renounced to renew the CL experience then. Will we have a digital CL some day? That is que question.

 

Not really, again, the X1 is not full frame, but the Minilux, CM and CL were... For that reason I don't think the "digital CL" is a possibility, but an X2 with interchangeable lenses, different animals.

[lct]

Not my opinion i must say. Aside from very special formats, all Leica film cameras were full frame then. It is not the case any more and nobody can tell whether a 'digital CL' would be FF at all. I would bet APS-C personally but YMMV.

[felipe-m]

Not my opinion i must say. Aside from very special formats, all Leica film cameras were full frame then. It is not the case any more and nobody can tell whether a 'digital CL' would be FF at all. I would bet APS-C personally but YMMV.

 

The point remains that internal competition might have been higher back then, since there was just one main format. Cameras with specs just slightly different were probably going to compete strongly.

No the case anymore, and the reason why the "Digital CL" analogy is less accurate in the case of a possible interchangeable Lense X2.

 

It's not a semantic argument of "CL" vs "X2", but rather a format, sensor size and resolution argument.

Because of that, and although I would love one myself, a Digi CL seems very unlikely. A X2 with smaller sensor and IC lenses seems much more likely.

On top of that, the other X1 specs are also very different from the M9, and the X2's would presumably be equally different.

 

Having said that, nothing stops Leica from calling such an X2 a "Digital CL". And who cares, as long as it's made soon! My money is waiting and ready

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[jsrockit]

I bet by the time Leica would design and bring to market an X2, that full frame sensors will be the norm.