giordano Posted September 9, 2009 Share #61 Posted September 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) John I do not understand what you mean by dynamic range in this context. It seems that you saying that "pulling" (I guess via firmware in the DSP) the sensor's "normal 160" to 80 causes some negative impact...what in concrete terms is the negative impact? Presumably the Leica M9 will also have the same issue? We're talking about the M9 but it would be the same with the M8 if EI 80 were provided in new firmware. Michael Hußmann explained it well in post #20 in the New Leica M8.x firmware??!! thread: Btw, I don’t quite get the attractiveness of ISO 80 either. Reducing the sensitivity setting below a sensor’s native sensitivity amounts to overexposing it. ISO 80 costs you one f-stop of dynamic range due to overexposure, without any significant reduction in noise. Now if it’s a bright day, 1/4000 or 1/8000 s doesn’t cut it, and you don’t have an ND filter handy, an ISO 80 setting might be useful. But chances are you will then be missing the 1 EV of dynamic range lost to overexposure. The point is that reducing the exposure index one stop below the sensor's "native sensitivity" isn't like putting a one-stop ND filter on the front. In a well-exposed picture of a broad-range subject at the "native" ISO, the brightest non-specular highlights will be exposed just below the level at which the sensor's photosites become chock full of photons and you lose highlight detail. Changing the EI from 160 to 80 means doubling the amount of light striking the sensor during the exposure. If the highlights exposed at 160 were close to the limit, with double the exposure they will be over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 9, 2009 Posted September 9, 2009 Hi giordano, Take a look here M9 - are we happy and who's buying one?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Frank Sprow Posted September 9, 2009 Share #62 Posted September 9, 2009 At this point, and subject to in-depth review (e.g. Sean's) I'll wait with my M8.2 and M7. Reasons: - At the risk of insulting my German friends, sometimes it's not best to be an early adopter. - I have banged the sapphire screen on my M8.2 on rocks etc. in Africa and elsewhere so many times without a scratch that I'm not interested in going back to a plastic screen. - To date, the high ISO images posted are not very impressive, nor are the DNG's as sharp as I would have hoped. - LCD needs an upgrade to catch up with my cheap point-and-shoot. I would be delighted to change my first impressions based on more informed analysis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikelc Posted September 9, 2009 Share #63 Posted September 9, 2009 Anyone getting theirs this week in the US? ...yes ordered mine from David at DALEPHOTO...coming soon... mike mikecettadotcom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted September 9, 2009 Share #64 Posted September 9, 2009 No, not buying for sure. M8 was the last camera i was an early adopter. The M9 looks and handles the same as the m8. The pixel difference is nice but not significant at the print sizes i like. FF is nice but not worth to spend an extra Euro 4000 to upgrade my m8. I do not upgrade my TV , Car or computer when a new model comes around. I reached that same stage with digital cameras when the 10MP border was reached. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted September 9, 2009 Share #65 Posted September 9, 2009 I have nothing new to add to this discussion. I'm fascinated by the amount of rationalization that goes into justifying an increasingly over priced Leica item. I would like to get my hands on one, don't get me wrong, but I will have to wait until they hit the used market. I refuse to pay $7000.00 for it. Membership in this exclusive M9 club is now beyond my financial means. I will wait and continue using my M8, and Canon 5D Mark II which I am really enjoying, the ISO is out of this world :-). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magd0328 Posted September 9, 2009 Share #66 Posted September 9, 2009 Crickey! Judging by the posts here Leica's turnover in the next week will be more than in the entire year preceding. The M9 and X1 are going to save the company, for sure. As for me, I'm very, very tempted. Probably wait until after xmas and see if the price drifts down a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted September 9, 2009 Share #67 Posted September 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have nothing new to add to this discussion. I'm fascinated by the amount of rationalization that goes into justifying an increasingly over priced Leica item. I would like to get my hands on one, don't get me wrong, but I will have to wait until they hit the used market. I refuse to pay $7000.00 for it. Membership in this exclusive M9 club is now beyond my financial means. I will wait and continue using my M8, and Canon 5D Mark II which I am really enjoying, the ISO is out of this world :-). yes, enjoy your 5Dmark II. particularly at iso >160. p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted September 9, 2009 Share #68 Posted September 9, 2009 yes, enjoy your 5Dmark II. particularly at iso >160. p ISO 160? I appreciate your sense of humor. It's more like 6400 on the 5D II. Here's an example from the other night @ 6400 ISO - the lens I used sports a Leica UV filter. Cheers! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/95921-m9-are-we-happy-and-whos-buying-one/?do=findComment&comment=1025768'>More sharing options...
stealthman_1 Posted September 9, 2009 Share #69 Posted September 9, 2009 ISO 160? I appreciate your sense of humor. It's more like 6400 on the 5D II. Here's an example from the other night @ 6400 ISO - the lens I used sports a Leica UV filter. Cheers! I'm curious why you would shoot this at ISO6400? Educated guess says that's EV7 light, maybe even EV8, which means it could be shot at ISO800, f4, 1/60th. ISO400 if it's EV8. I've shot a few dinner events with restaurant lighting. Using the D3 with telephotos such as the 135 f2 necessitates ISO6400 to keep 1/100+ shutter speeds in EV3 light, but that's not the situation with an M so it isn't really applicable. ISO1600 in EV3 light gives f2 at 1/30th...which leave plenty of shutter speed head room, even with a 50mm. As a Leica film shooter, I just don't understand this need for ISO6400, especially with the DR penalty that comes with it??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jruffolo Posted September 9, 2009 Share #70 Posted September 9, 2009 I don't see how it is any more overpriced than a 1dsmkIII or D3x, etc.; especially considering the much smaller scale production and amount of maunal/skilled labor involved in its manufacture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted September 10, 2009 Share #71 Posted September 10, 2009 As I understand the 80 ISO it is simply a preset of 160 ISO with -1 EV dialled in. The "native" speed of the sensor without additional amplification remains 160 ISO and is the speed at which the signal to noise ratio is at its best. By adding some attenuation of the signal, as you do by setting -1 EV you are not improving the signal to noise ratio, as you would be on a genuine 80 ISO sensor. When you increase the ISO setting of the camera, extra amplification is added but the noise increases disproportionately so the S/N ratio drops. Now you can filter out noise but at the same time you will reduce signal accuracy so that you lose image definition. The M8 and I assume M9 approach is to take a blank high ISO image and subtract the blank image from the actual, in the hope that the noise is cancelled. It does work to some extent. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted September 10, 2009 Share #72 Posted September 10, 2009 Got it, happy. One improvement might be ... Maybe with a hairdryer to soften the glue, you could remove the sapphire glass off an M8-2/u and swap it for the plastic of an M9. If successful let us know! Wilson Now THAT's a thought - seriously - if anyone gets this sorted I'd be interested to hear! I'd be happy to downgrade my M8u a little bit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmun Posted September 10, 2009 Share #73 Posted September 10, 2009 I just have one nit to pick ... Why go back to the plastic LCD? To leave room for an upgrade latter. Never put all your cards on the table. Upgrades stimulate sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted September 10, 2009 Share #74 Posted September 10, 2009 We're talking about the M9 but it would be the same with the M8 if EI 80 were provided in new firmware. Michael Hußmann explained it well in post #20 in the New Leica M8.x firmware??!! thread: The point is that reducing the exposure index one stop below the sensor's "native sensitivity" isn't like putting a one-stop ND filter on the front. In a well-exposed picture of a broad-range subject at the "native" ISO, the brightest non-specular highlights will be exposed just below the level at which the sensor's photosites become chock full of photons and you lose highlight detail. Changing the EI from 160 to 80 means doubling the amount of light striking the sensor during the exposure. If the highlights exposed at 160 were close to the limit, with double the exposure they will be over it. John many thanks for this ....very clear. On this basis it is not clear to me why Leica M9 has chosen to move away from the native ISO 160 of the sensor ... The whole concept of a Leica is surely to shoot at an optimum setting (ISO 160) and fooling the setup to go to ISO 80 while as a consequence limiting dynamic range, causing a pseudo overexposure seems to be more at market positioning rather than helping to achieve better pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2009 Share #75 Posted September 10, 2009 Very simple - it is practical to replace a ND filter on the lens by a slower ISO setting - even if it has some disadvantages. Don't use ISO 80 for high-contrast scenes and it will be fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted September 10, 2009 Share #76 Posted September 10, 2009 I don't know whether I'll get one. I like not having to use the IR/UV filters and the full frame allowing my Elmarit-21 ASPH to have a 21mm EFOV, but am not happy with the LCD being the old 230,000 and not being sapphire as on my 8.2 — a huge marketing mistake, I think. Having a 900,000 LCD is useful when shooting in bright places like Bangkok when you want to check exposure from time to time. Erwin Puts writes that the M9 has "the sensor has the same basic characteristics of the Kodak sensor built into the M8: the noise at higher ISO values is still unpleasantly high." ...I'll have to see Sean Reid's review tomorrow. The high ISO performance would be the most important thing for me. In contrast to what I wrote yesterday, I'm much more interested in the camera after reading Jono Slack's experience with the cameras and seeing his high ISO pictures. Unlike Puts, who now sounds as if he doesn't what he's talking about, Slack states that there's quite an improvement in high ISO performance. See his site by clicking here —> M9 —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4season Posted September 10, 2009 Share #77 Posted September 10, 2009 I'm planning on picking one up in the 1st or 2nd quarter of next year when I can pay for it mostly in cash! Black or silver, I don't really care: Both look great to me. Very interested to see which wide angle lenses fare best with regards to corner softness and blue fringing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&W Posted September 10, 2009 Share #78 Posted September 10, 2009 Ordered yesterday steel-grey paint finish and will be happy very soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted September 10, 2009 Share #79 Posted September 10, 2009 Having now seen Jono Slack's evaluation and the first part of Sean Reid's excellent review — I didn't find the Luminous Lightroom article useful — I'm still tending to keep my M8.2 rather than upgrading, although I'm waiting for the second part of Sean's article to see more about performance at ISO 2500. Things that I don't like on the M9 are as follows: 1. Removal of the LCD on the top plate for easy view of battery condition, to which current ISO setting should have been added. 2. Setting frame line at 1m rather than the 2m on the M8.2, which I greatly prefer. 3. Elimination of the sapphire LCD on the back whose scratch resistance I appreciate on a camera of this quality. 4. Keeping a 230,000 pixel LCD rather than using a 900,000 pixel one, which provides much better visibility in bright light. Basically, I like the M8 files up to ISO 640 and don't need the improvement the M9 provides, but was hoping for substantial improvement at ISO 1250, and more particularly at ISO 2500. At this stage unless I can see great improvement over the M8 in ISO 2500 files, I would keep on using my M8.2 until the M9 includes improvements for most the points above, which I consider likely in the future. Yes, I would prefer to have FF and not to use IR/UV filters and to have manual entry of lenses as well as more direct ISO control...but that will have to wait. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enboe Posted September 10, 2009 Share #80 Posted September 10, 2009 Very tempting. I am using the lack of hard chrome finish and sapphire LCD cover as an excuse to wait a little while. I also want to see what issues arise in the first 90 days, and also want to avoid putting it on credit. The credit card companies are running rampant with their rates in the US before the February 2010 interest rate freeze. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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