efftee Posted September 7, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Page 33. Section (3) Enduring Performance and Value. In short: The Leica M9 is an investment for a lifetime. Big Claim. The specs are certainly impressive; everything everyone is pining for. Now, assuming the M9 IQ is as good as or better, especially at high ISO levels, than the M8/8.2, how likely is this going to be the last M camera you'd buy? I'm thinking it might just be for me. What more could one expect? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Hi efftee, Take a look here M9: An Investment for a Lifetime. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dpattinson Posted September 7, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 7, 2009 I think it's likely to be the last M camera I buy new. Moving up to FF would make the new premium worth it to me, but I can't see them making any other change from the M9 that would justify the cost to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jockele Posted September 7, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 7, 2009 Page 33. Section (3) Enduring Performance and Value. In short: The Leica M9 is an investment for a lifetime. Big Claim. The specs are certainly impressive; everything everyone is pining for. Now, assuming the M9 IQ is as good as or better, especially at high ISO levels, than the M8/8.2, how likely is this going to be the last M camera you'd buy? I'm thinking it might just be for me. What more could one expect? I will buy the M10 (I have the M8.2 and M6) Best wishes Jockele Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2009 Share #4 Posted September 7, 2009 Some time in the future we will have threads throwing this statement in Leica's face, because the M10 came out before the posters died.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted September 7, 2009 Share #5 Posted September 7, 2009 i guess the M9 is just a milestone today.....but imagine the changes in a M15......yeahhh...lets discuss it.... hihihihihihi cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted September 7, 2009 Share #6 Posted September 7, 2009 i thought the my 911 from 1996 is the ultimate driving machine....hmmmm....10 years later mmmmhhh.....that's how life is... cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted September 7, 2009 Share #7 Posted September 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I struggle to comprehend that grown men actually think in these terms... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted September 7, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 7, 2009 If I recall correctly, the same exact statement was made when the M8 was announced - and the claim was supported by the short-lived "Perpetual Upgrade Program"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 7, 2009 Share #9 Posted September 7, 2009 In The Sands of Mars, sci-fi written by Arthur C. Clarke in 1950 (pre-Leica M), the main character shoots pictures on Mars with his Leica XXa (screwmount numbering = 20a). Which just goes to show - you never know what the future holds. But - beyond full-frame for my 21mm, I don't see much in the way of advances that I need. I do suspect that I will outlive the M9 in terms of available parts, so I may have to upgrade to whatever is available in 10-15 years once something critical fails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 7, 2009 Share #10 Posted September 7, 2009 Actually, any M, past or present, can be an investment for a liftetime (with leeway, of course, for poetic license)...each can still take great pics in the right hands for a long, long time. So, advertising is fine IMO. And, if a new (better?) tool comes along, so what?...buy it or not...for another investment. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted September 7, 2009 With the M8, I always knew, and quite sure I'm not alone, that I would upgrade when a ff M becomes available. Just as many Leica film shooters were holding out for. Of course, there are more things in heaven and earth not dreamt of in my philosophy; probably wrong but just can't imagine there's anything in an M10 that could entice me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted September 7, 2009 Share #12 Posted September 7, 2009 It all depends on your perspective. The M8 can also be seen as an investment of a lifetime until you change your mind about it. BTW you can order one today brand new for $3995.00 and get it on Sept. 9th. Amazon.com: leica m8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 7, 2009 Share #13 Posted September 7, 2009 Page 33. Section (3) Enduring Performance and Value. In short: The Leica M9 is an investment for a lifetime. Big Claim. The specs are certainly impressive; everything everyone is pining for. Now, assuming the M9 IQ is as good as or better, especially at high ISO levels, than the M8/8.2, how likely is this going to be the last M camera you'd buy? I'm thinking it might just be for me. What more could one expect? I suppose that as soon as the first hands-on review of M9 will appear, we will have a list of more-to-expect... . As for me : before M8, I used M4, and of course I knew that 28 mm frame and a TTL meter would have been useful... and did not bought M4P nor M6... ; I simply said to myself that M4 was an enduring value for me, so did not bother... then digital arrived and, after a long decision timeframe, I decided to switch, liked a lot my M8 and the only (relative) hassle was the crop factor... not for IQ per se, but for focals re-definition....: given that, I could easily say that yes, M9 could be the last M camera I buy (if and when I'm going to buy it... undefined at the moment) : the problem is that the concept of "enduring value" "investiment for a lifetime" is all another thing between mech vs. digital : Leica claim is rather strong, but I don't see the reason for they won't follow the usual lifecycles of similar products... as long as there is someone that can fix a possible problem of my M4, the only problem is that there can be no more 35mm film in production, 20 years from now... but what if 20 years from now my M9 sensor FAILS ? There are not yet practical experiences of such durations in the digital photo world. (I quoted 20 years just to give a number... being 52 I hope to have a LONGER photo life...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted September 7, 2009 Share #14 Posted September 7, 2009 I think it is a valid question as the investment is big. Lifetime is a long time though and if a digital camera can last a decade or two, that would be great. IMO, handling wise there isn't much more I need from a M camera, so all the gimmicks a future model could bring would be valued lowly. I think that the real big improvement on the M10 that will impact significantly pictures will be an improvement in low light capability. 125th to 1/250th pretty much garantees you a still picture in street photography in. Creativity effects apart, how high do ISO need to go to have still pictures, large DOF and clean files in a normally lit street at night ? Probably 4-5 stops more than the current top of the class. So there is definitely room for improvement here, though I am not sure the law of physics might allow it. The M9 with a two stops improvement would already allow to hit 1/60th and 1/125 in many cases with a fast lens in low light (I am obviously not talking about a closet), yet DOF will remain thin in many cases with longer lenses. I was at a party a few days ago and my 60mm Hex at F1.2 gave me speeds of 1/15th at ISO1250. Output wasn't bad but sharpness was not there and grain very visible. Two stops more would have probably improved the pictures quite a lot (decreasing the ISO and closing the apertue one stop). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthury Posted September 7, 2009 Share #15 Posted September 7, 2009 >how likely is this going to be the last M camera you'd buy? Digital cameras are now like personal computers, it is a highly depreciative electronic product and frequent upgrades is the norm. If Leica cannot keep up with the frequency of updates/upgrades, she will lose out to the industry norm. This will not be the last M you'd buy, I can bet on it unless Leica closes its doors. There'll always be reasons for you to buy the M10. There'll be celebration, hoo-hah, for making it to the tenth generation of the M rangefinder. There'll be a 10th generation special badge for the first 500 customers... with a special price, of course. I can see that coming ... Actually, investment is, perhaps, is too big a pair of shoes for a digital camera to fill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted September 7, 2009 Share #16 Posted September 7, 2009 Its becoming pretty relative at this point. 10 megapix M8 have proved to be plenty for a magazine spread. 10 years ago a Nikon D1 was NOT enough for a serious magazine spread, and as such had to be upgraded as soon as technology improved. Its doubtful there will be a significant increase in magazine print resolution over the next 10 years, which would demand higher resolution files. As far as I am concerned, the biggest advantage of the M9 is the full-frame sensor, the 18 megapix give some room for cropping even. But I don't think any current professional will look at the M8 and say - this camera just don't cut it. the same applies to the new M9. Naturally there will be new more exciting M cameras in the future, but with the introduction of full frame sensor, we are now to some degree back where Leica users were with the M7, lots of photographers were perfectly happy with their M3 and M6 cameras and simply did not see how the M7 would improve their life. I think the M10 will be much less celebrated compared to the M9... this is the first full-frame leica digital rangefinder. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted September 7, 2009 Share #17 Posted September 7, 2009 Well said Bo. Looking forward to getting at M9, but should the final price put it out of my reach I won't feel handicapped in any way shooting with the M8 in any genuine way for the type of work for which the M excels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted September 7, 2009 Share #18 Posted September 7, 2009 In fact the point raised here is not so stupid as one (consensus) might think. There is no obvious neccesity for better lenses than what Leica has on offer at this point in time, sure a 28lux ASPH will sell but once they have that.... what then ?? Do we need f/1 at all focal lengths? I don't really think so. If we take the M9 specs as given then we have 18 mpix (enough), rangefinder (that is what we wanted), no AF etc. basically a manual camera (this is why we buy the stuff), drop dead gorgeous design made by people that care about what they are doing, and finally we cannot count photons that are not there!! So high ISO, DR etc. are not available for much more improvement. We have all pretty much hit a brick wall. From my point of view the M8 is as good as I need (maybe more so), the M9 is even better. Who knows I may get one if only to support Leica - they deserve our support that much is clear - but do we really expect the M9 to be redundant in 5 years time ?? I don't! The M8 is not redundant after nearly 3 years. It is still in the higher echelons in combination with the M glassware, despite all of it's limitations. The same holds for the DMR as far as I can gather from Jaap, Doug a.o. & that must be about 6 year old by now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted September 7, 2009 Share #19 Posted September 7, 2009 >M9: An Investment for a Lifetime Because that's how long it's going to take to pay it off? (Ba Dum Bum - cue high hat sound FX) Seriously. The M9 could last you a long time. Let's say 5 years, which is a long time in the land of digital. Why? Because the next big leap will be the death of Bayer pattern sensors and a huge leap in dynamic range. Unless there is a major, unforeseen development coming down the pike in the near future, in the short term the improvements are going to be incremental, not revolutionary. The megapixel race is coming to an end and hopefully we will see the industry start to work on sensors like the FOVEON or Fuji's EXR technology etc that break away from the current model. But that's probably 3 - 5 years away. 18MP from a CCD with no AA filter and modern Leica glass is about as much resolution, as most mortals are going to need. So, you're taken care of in that area. The 16bit files should be really rich, both in terms of color resolution and exposure range. I'm going to take a wild guess here and will say that the camera will deliver a solid 9 stops, maybe close to 10, of useable range. That's very impressive and if utilized properly should keep most people happy for a while. Speed? It's already faster than any analog M, even with a motorized film advance. Besides, M shooters don't machine gun. Noise? Take better picture and no one will care about it. Pretend it's 1977 again, which means; open up to f1.4 and hold your breath. It's not going to last decades like an analog M or LTM, because apparently things like an LCD have a fixed life span and start to deteriorate over time. You can always machine a new part for a mechanical camera, but good luck finding a replacement LCD in 2045. So, there's my take on it. If you can break the cost down over 5 years and make it work for you, it may be worth the price of admission. If that is the case and you survive writing the check, the hardest part will be deciding what to do three years from now, when the M10 comes out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo_Lorentzen Posted September 7, 2009 Share #20 Posted September 7, 2009 Its probably possible to make a different case for the cash. When I stopped shooting film for my work, my annual film bill was more than $3000, that's a lot of rolls of film BTW. I have not purchased much film since 1997 so the straight film savings could be said to be more than 30k. If a M9 last me 3 years its a break-even affair. if it last longer than that.. well its not like Im making money as it is still expensive, but the cost is not shocking by 4 years at all if held against a typical professional film budget. it is simply that one consumable have been replaced with another. To be hones I have NO IDEA what $3000 worth of film in 1997 would cost me today.. probably more. BTW.. Third - another sign that the megapixel race is about done, the new Canon G11 down-graded the sensor from 14 to 10 megapix with better quality.. clearly Canon did not feel they would loose sales by throtteling back the sensor on their flagship power-shot. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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