M9 CV and Leica lenses...

[Mauribix]

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I'm just wondering, being a CV lenses user and fan too, if the new FF sensor will set a new (and more visible) gap between CV and Leica lenses.

 

Let me say, I always used CV lenses together with my Leica ones, and found them to be as good as they can get (as Sean and many other here said and tested).

My concern now is how they will perform on a FF sensor?

Some may say that CV lenses perform as well on film as they do on the M8, but as we know the difference between a FF sensor and a (FF) film may show up much more evidently, let just think about the new L-series lenses that Canon *had* to introduce with this generation of cameras and sensors.

Now, what you think?

As an example, will the 35nokton perform as well on the FF sensor as it does on my M8? (my favourite CV lens)

Will the 15super wide heliar act the same?

 

 

P.S.

just a thread to keep my mind busy before the M9 come out!

If someone is finding this to be a useless or stupid question, please, just don't reply...

[delander †]

I think it is an interesting question and we will have to wait only a short time to start getting the answers. Leica surely hopes that the M9 will show up deficiences in CV and Zeiss lenses. I do to because I have bought only the modern Leica lenses.

 

Jeff

[Ecar]

Actually an excellent question IMO...

Love my CV lenses too and am afraid the FF sensor may expose some of their (mainly corner) weaknesses. As I wrote in another thread, I'd love to be proven wrong.

I guess we'll have to wait for some real-life tests (Sean, where are you? We need you here...)

In any event, they'll still perform well on the M8, which is a keeper as far as I'm concerned.

[lct]

Yes some CV lenses vignette more than their Leica counterpart so remains to see how they will behave on a FF body.

[UliWer]

There is a very easy way to try any lens on a Leica M with full format: use a Leica M for film. There is still time until Wednesday.

[rfleica]

very good question.

 

to state the obvious it may depend a lot on the specific lens. some cv lenses will remain strong, others may start to suffer comparison (especially at corners). i also suspect that those waiting for the ff sensor to show a gap between modern leica and zeiss zm lenses may need to wait a long time. just my hunch based on zero hard evidence.

[Mauribix]

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There is a very easy way to try any lens on a Leica M with full format: use a Leica M for film. There is still time until Wednesday.

 

I guess that the FF sensor will behave differently from a FF Film, at least this is what happened when comparing the same lenses on FF film EOS to the 5D for example...

 

It's not only something about vignetting though, it should involve sharpness CA and ?flare? too IMO.

[lct]

There is a very easy way to try any lens on a Leica M with full format: use a Leica M for film...

Film Ms will show how lenses behave on film for sure but they can hardly be of any help to check out how microlenses perform on a FF sensor with and w/o lens coding i'm afraid.

[Mauribix]

Since I actually kept only modern Leica lenses (in the Leica family) beside my CV's, I'd like to know how "old" pre-asph lenses will perform on FF sensor, and how this could eventually affect the second-hand market...

 

For example, actually the pre-asph 35cron is a great performer on the M8, and some (me included) still prefer this lens to the cron ASPH, but what if that lens (as i think) is not going to be as good as it used to be on the M8?

Ok, I know that in "real world photography" this may not be a big issue, but in a certain way, it may justify for some of us the "switching" to the new ASPH class of lenses by Leica.

 

Let's see... meanwhile, I've got my 50lux ASPH waiting there to prove to be my best performer all around.

[artur5]

Maybe the lens which will suffer more with a FF. DRF won't be a CV or Zeiss, but a Leica, i.e. the Noctilux f/1.0. With the 1.33 crop we were spared the corners and believe me, full open and until f/2 it has the worst corners of all RF lenses, ever. Even at f/4 isn't nothing to write home about.

I'm not bashing the old Nocti. That lens wasn't intended to be used for landscape pictures at f/1.0 and, of course, portraits doesn't need to have sharp corners, which will be otherwise out of focus, due to the thin DOF; but if you shoot in low light, but not darkness, using f/1.0 or f/1,4, expect the corners to be very, very blurry.

[lct]

The lenses that will suffer most are uncoded ones IMHO. How can vignetting be controlled with them? Are microlenses competent enough to rely on PP?

[Steve Ash]

There is a very simple solution to the problem. Just crop it to the M8 size.

 

Regards

Steve

 

PS: Just kidding..

[UliWer]

Film Ms will show how lenses behave on film for sure but they can hardly be of any help to check out how microlenses perform on a FF sensor with and w/o lens coding i'm afraid.

 

Yes, film and digital sensors will react differently.

 

I thought, the question was whether CV lenses will differ in their results on FF from Leica lenses. Those differences - sharpness in corners for example - may be seen on film as on digital files.

 

Do microlenses on sensors react differently if the light comes through Leica branded glass or glass with other branding?

 

Of course coding should make differences, for the coding activates the software for cyan correction et al. There are coded CV lenses around since the times of John Millich as well as there are uncoded Leica lenses around.

 

For sure, it is easier to compare results of different lenses when you can look at their results side by side on digital files. Therefore we need the files.

[manolo]

I expect that on the M9 the lenses will show more differences than in the M8 but that is good for me as one of the best things about the M system is the diversity of lenses that can be used.

[lct]

...Do microlenses on sensors react differently if the light comes through Leica branded glass or glass with other branding?...

All microlenses don't react the same way obviously so the final result will be different with Leica and Epson or Canon bodies for instance, also if the lens is coded or not. The M9 experience will be specially interesting from this viewpoint as this body will be the first DRF to use microlenses on a full frame sensor.

[vanhulsenbeek]

......................

 

It's not only something about vignetting though, it should involve sharpness CA and ?flare? too IMO.

 

 

Vignetting sure is controlled by the firmware for coded lenses. CA I am not so certain about. One would need DXO-like algorithms, aimed at special lens /sensor combinations.

 

I remember Chausseurs d'Images publishing a test with one of the biggest Canon sensors ( I do not wish to burden my mind with what D Camera this was) and the 85/1.2 lens. The CA was dramatic and ugly. If Canon could have prevented it in firmware, they sure would have done so.

 

But Sean's tests shows that most modern Leica lenses handle CA very well.

 

About vignetting: I always find vignet-free pictures bland and "digital". A little vignetting, especially in B&W, has never bothered me. Maybe CV lenses will shine there

[don_panko]

The answer is whether or not the M9 still requires coding of lenses. If yes, then the corner correction will be optimized for Leica glass and other brands will not have that advantage. Perhaps this is a good reason to hang on to my M8 which inherently crops away the problem areas.

[misha]

for me, certain 'extreme' lenses will remain/become 'm8' lenses - cv15 and 75cron, while m9 will get get a 35 lens cap with an occasional 24. btw, will m9 have 24mm framelines?

 

thanks

misha

PHOTOGRAPHY BY MISHA FRIEDMAN

[efftee]

The answer is whether or not the M9 still requires coding of lenses. If yes, then the corner correction will be optimized for Leica glass and other brands will not have that advantage. Perhaps this is a good reason to hang on to my M8 which inherently crops away the problem areas.

 

But you can also crop away those areas from an M9 image...

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Hallo,

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[UliWer]

The most important results of coding the lenses was the correction of cyan drift especially for wide angles. Sean Reid regularly showed the - somtimes big - differences between coded/uncoded and lens detection UV/IR on/off. This cyan drift was mainly the result of UV/IR filters; they - but not the lenses - caused the cyan effect in the corners of wide angle lenses, which had to be corrected by camera software working with coding (or CornerFix).

 

If it is true, that you don't need any UV/IR-Filters for the M9 (I still wan't to see this before I am sure about it) most of the cyan drift problem will be solved as well. Uncoded lenses will profit from this.

 

Remains vignetting, which also seems to be corrected by M8 software, but i am not sure about this. Well, John Millich won't deny coding lenses after 09/09 and the usual quick and dirty ways for hand-coding remain as well. So this will cause no unsurmountable problems for non-Leica lenses.

 

There are already rumours in this forum, that the M9 will allow manual lens detection as well as automatical detection by reading the codes: If this really means, that you can enter the code for a special uncoded lens manually, most non-Leica (or historical Leica) lens problems will be solved and John Millich will have to look for a new second job. Though these rumours find some justification in the texts which have leaked since Saturday, I remain sceptical about them. It will cost Leica some advantage over their rivals, so i see no reason for offering this option; if they do so, they will know their reasons for sure.-

 

Anyway the M9 does not seem to cause bigger problems for non-Leica lenses but more to solve at least some of their former issues.

 

Lens characteristics, especially as sharpness in the center and in the corners is concerned - has always been a feature of the lenses' glass. I am sure it is no invention since the introduction of digital sensors. On full frame (be it film or sensor) you will see the extreme corners which were hidden by the M8 crop. Traditionally - but also very generalizing - Leica lenses were sharp in the center and softer in the corners; Zeiss lenses show more homogenity on the full frame. So for someone who does not like soft corners but prefers overall sharpness Zeiss lenses could gain on Leica when used on full frame, while the "weakness" of Leica lenses was hidden by the M8 crop. The 50 Summilux pre. asph. which was rather "bad" in the corners, could be a "big looser" on FF from this point of view. For those who like the increase of a three dimensional look caused by different sharpness, the FF digital sensor will reintroduce the "special Leica feeling" we knew from film. The 50mm Summilux pre asph. has never been a "looser" during 90% of its production time, when it was used on film. I don't see any reasons why this could change on a digital sensor.