I ordered the M9 today...

[Saloti]

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Thanks.

 

I'm using the M8 exclusively now. I'm updating my website now so some projects are missing from my site and archive, but my Brazil, Wall Street and Serving the Nation projects are M8. Cuba and Istanbul are Tri-X with film M cameras.

 

All wedding work is M8.

 

Noah, this is excellent. You are the proof that M8, much criticised, is an excellent instrument.

I always felt this, but of course I do not have your proficiency. I am just an amateur, focusing on

landscape/nature themes...

[Saloti]

Apart from the 2x crop factor...

 

If the M8.2 is no more, why not just keep old faithful M8 as the entry level?

 

Andy, the question is what "entry level" will mean. Right now M8 is offered at ~ 3.300 Euros.

I am convinced that ~ 2.500,-/2.750,- € would be feasible, once M9 would be on the market.

 

Leica´s margin would go down on M8 then, however, M8 could be an instrument to

drive M lens sales, especially the Summarit-line. Also they might shift production of the

M8 body to Portugal, or even to Panasonic production sites....

 

Yes, it could work....

[scaryink]

Andy, the question is what "entry level" will mean. Right now M8 is offered at ~ 3.300 Euros.

I am convinced that ~ 2.500,-/2.750,- € would be feasible, once M9 would be on the market.

 

Leica´s margin would go down on M8 then, however, M8 could be an instrument to

drive M lens sales, especially the Summarit-line. Also they might shift production of the

M8 body to Portugal, or even to Panasonic production sites....

 

Yes, it could work....

 

Wow, perhaps you should apply for a job as marketing director or get a chair on the board of Leica. I wont ask how or where you received your information as I assume them to be trade secrets.

[zeitz]

David Farkas, where are you? You have been totally silent on this topic. Whenever you are ready to take M9 orders, I'm ready to put my money down.

[Saloti]

Wow, perhaps you should apply for a job as marketing director or get a chair on the board of Leica. I wont ask how or where you received your information as I assume them to be trade secrets.

 

These are just assumptions, I have literally no insight into this company.

[newyorkone]

there is another view on this: What will those say, who have bought M 8.2 at full price only

some weeks ago?

 

Wouldn´t most of them have waited for M9, if this had been properly announced?

 

Although I agree that full disclosure would be nice, the fact is that Leica is a business and as such, needs to make decisions for business reasons. Also, keep in mind that Leica isn't doing anything out of the ordinary by being "hush, hush" about new gear...it is the industry standard - that's what non-disclosure forms are for. All of the camera and electronics manufacturers do this. Quite honestly, I see why they have to do this and think it is perfectly legitimate and necessary.

 

Products have life cycles and consumers will fall into either being early, middle or late adopters. Unfortunately for the late adopters, there is usually a rude awakening when they find out that the item that they just purchased has been replaced with a newer model that is twice as nice at half the price. This is especially true with digital cameras. The half the price part probably doesn't apply to Leica though...

[marknorton]

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This price (€5500) puts the camera right up there with the best offerings from Nikon and Canon, nothing else comes close. In terms of IQ, that might well be justified but the danger is that if it is the only DRF in the world, it pushes rangefinder photography even more to the margins than it already is.

 

At the same time, Leica will be keep to move on from the expensive electronics package of the M8(.2) where some parts may be becoming difficult to source at the (low) quanitities Leica needs. A new electronics package would promise volume for their Maestro chip set and allow a refresh of the other components to produce a camera which is more up to date in its execution - lower battery power, faster, smaller, cheaper, all the drivers we are used to.

 

I think if rangefinder photography is to survive, there needs to be another model at a lower price point. Whether that's achieved by updating the M8.2 or by having two M9 models, one FF top-of-the-tree and a "cooking" cropped model with lots of shared components, I do not know.

 

I'm holding back from the M9 until I know what the deal is. There could be a few negatives for me:

 

- Has Leica done nothing to enhance the key USP of this type of camera, the viewfinder?

- Are they persisting with the silly snap-shot mode?

- Have they recognised that a £5000 camera needs to be more durable than a black-paint M8.2?

 

Still, it's all very interesting and I expect we will also see another crop of lenses - 16/3.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4 would be my guess.

[jrc]

I don't know if Leica plans to release a rebadged GF1, but I have seen some photos of the GF1 from a Japanese web site and according to that site, it will sell a detachable EVF for around $400. The camera body will be $800+. I imagine that would put a Leica-branded equivalent up around $1600.

 

I'll probably eventually get an M9, unless it turns out to be nothing more than a FF M8. I don't make many demands on the M8 that would be $8,000 better-served with a bit more resolution; though a higher ISO would be nice.

 

JC

[PeterP]

Mark,

 

Leica should do what Canon does and call it 'P' Program Mode.

[marknorton]

I've enjoyed using M lenses on the G1, though more out of curiosity than serious photographic effort. The 2x crop factor though is too much.

 

Peter, it's not really a Program mode because you still have to select the aperture - from what I can see, it simply forces Aperture priority mode with Auto ISO and AWB and puts up silly graphics. The danger is there is still someone in Solms who thinks it's a Neat Idea.

[PeterP]

I've enjoyed using M lenses on the G1, though more out of curiosity than serious photographic effort. The 2x crop factor though is too much.

 

Peter, it's not really a Program mode because you still have to select the aperture - from what I can see, it simply forces Aperture priority mode with Auto ISO and AWB and puts up silly graphics. The danger is there is still someone in Solms who thinks it's a Neat Idea.

 

Mark,

A function that neither you nor I will use, nor many other posters here. Applicable to some. For example: there was a post (I think you responded to) of some rather naive questions (I am sure he will take exception - but I am being kind) yesterday, this poster would certainly benefit from that mode - as would others (novices). Helps sell cameras, Canon pro cameras have this function, I am sure Nikon does also. I just take exception to 'snapshot mode' sounds P&S.

Cheers

[Riccis]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I feel like it's time for me to totally commit to digital and sell off some unused film cameras OR go back to shooting more film. I love film, the texture and feeling of the images and the process of working in the darkroom. But from a business perspective, think about this:

 

As a pro I shoot the equivalent of around 750 rolls of film a year. Each roll costs $9 ($4 to purchase the roll and $5 for processing). That adds up to $6750.

 

Say a new M digital camera costs $7000 and I need two bodies so that's $14k. And say in three years a new camera comes out making mine obsolete. Since Leicas hold their value better than other digital cameras I can probably sell my cameras for $2000 each. That means the cameras cost me $10,000 to own.

 

Had I shot film for three years it would have cost me $20,500.

 

Even if I processed the film myself, figuring the $4 roll of film and $1 per roll for chemicals and my increased home water bill, the three-year film cost would be $11,250.

 

Clearly for an amateur shooting fewer frames per year these numbers may not hold true. But for busy pros the initial cash outlay can pay off in the long term. Furthermore, I believe that an 18MP full-frame M digital, if that's what we're looking at, can have a useful life of at least five years for a working pro and longer for an amateur.

 

But of course as I said I do love film. Frankly if I were an amateur I don't think I'd have any digital cameras. But the reality of the photo business these days is that speed matters and clients often expect digital.

 

Noah - While I was already a fan of your documentary work I didn't know you were also a wedding shooter... You have great stuff on your site that I thoroughly enjoyed.

 

Cheers,

[gwelland]

<snip>

 

Peter, it's not really a Program mode because you still have to select the aperture - from what I can see, it simply forces Aperture priority mode with Auto ISO and AWB and puts up silly graphics. The danger is there is still someone in Solms who thinks it's a Neat Idea.

 

Mark,

 

I think that it's worth considering that probably the vast majority of folks on this forum aren't the demographic that this feature is aimed at. I'm sure that there's a segment of the customer base who are used to shooting film, don't want to post process their images at all and want the benefits of the Leica digital M platform. Let's face it, in B&W mode it's not THAT bad at all I'm pretty sure that this customer segment doesn't hang out on internet forums.

 

I personally I find it nothing more than a distracting option on the shutter speed dial that I really wish wasn't there so I didn't hit it by mistake. In fact I'd rather there was a menu option that would allow me to make it into a second Auto mode in case I accidently dialed it (which I have done more than once in the dark).

[guidomo]

Whilst the GF1 with an EVF might be a nice toy and I would even consider one as a small back-up, it is nowhere near an entry-level M. How can a 2x crop camera compete even with the original M8?

[Saloti]

Whilst the GF1 with an EVF might be a nice toy and I would even consider one as a small back-up, it is nowhere near an entry-level M. How can a 2x crop camera compete even with the original M8?

 

Guidomo,

 

it cannot compete with M8, in no respect, we can´t compare what cannot be compared.

The key question is the following:

 

> will Leica discontinue M8/M8.2, yes or no? My guess is yes.

> If yes then a GF1 would make a lot of sense, address to a completely new target group;

people who are simply not looking for M9 features and/or prices, but who wish to have

Leica (lens-)quality.

[jonoslack]

Mark,

 

I think that it's worth considering that probably the vast majority of folks on this forum aren't the demographic that this feature is aimed at. I'm sure that there's a segment of the customer base who are used to shooting film, don't want to post process their images at all and want the benefits of the Leica digital M platform. Let's face it, in B&W mode it's not THAT bad at all I'm pretty sure that this customer segment doesn't hang out on internet forums.

 

I personally I find it nothing more than a distracting option on the shutter speed dial that I really wish wasn't there so I didn't hit it by mistake. In fact I'd rather there was a menu option that would allow me to make it into a second Auto mode in case I accidently dialed it (which I have done more than once in the dark).

 

I quite agree with you - and I don't think it does to be too patronising either. I've met a lot of excellent photographers who simply aren't interested in the technical side of photography, and you would no more find them on an internet forum than flying to the moon.

 

I also agree that it shouldn't really be on the shutter speed dial, but put it in the menus so that it can be deliberately selected, then radically improve the jpg output, and I think you have a camera for people who can make images, but don't want to be doing with either fiddling with controls or doing post processing.

[marknorton]

My objection to it is having it on the shutter speed dial. It would be fine if it was in a menu which, if selected, greyed out the ISO and AWB selections in the same way some JPEG selections are greyed out now if you select DNG only.

 

It's a different user space, might be more relevant if the Maestro allows better JPEGs.

[chris_tribble]

Agreed - in fact I'd be seriously disappointed if Leica kept S mode on the shutter speed dial. B, yes, A yes - these are both related functions - S is nothing other than an nuisance.

 

Have to say to that I'd much rather have a positive stop at B (as with the original M6) so that you can then count clicks up to whatever you want to use. With the stopless shutter dial, I have no point of departure to refer to, and in the dark it can be a pig knowing what speed your shooting at in Manual - I often have to revert to shooting at random and checking the speed in preview so that I can then click to where I want to be. NOT sensible.

[noah_addis]

Noah - While I was already a fan of your documentary work I didn't know you were also a wedding shooter... You have great stuff on your site that I thoroughly enjoyed.

 

Cheers,

 

Thanks, that means a lot coming from you. I've always been a big fan of your work.

 

I just started doing weddings this year. I'll be updating my site soon with some new work...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[nbilello]

Great ,a FF M9, Outstanding. Now with my M8.2 and Pen 1 I can get 3 focal lengths ot of each of my M lenses.