I ordered the M9 today...

[wattsy]

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And hey, it's a long time since I made a really rational decision around money things, but I seem to get by ...

 

Fair enough.

 

Incidentally, I just spoke to my London dealer (sounds like I've got a drug habit) and he pretty much confirms that the M9 is coming next month (no surprise there). However, he is also of the view that the M8.2 is finished - apparently there hasn't been stock for some time and it's very much 'end of line'. He is usually very reliable (told me about the existence of the 0.95 Noctilux and the M8.2 some time in advance of Leica's announcements last year) so I think it puts paid to the "M8.2 at half the M9 cost" rumour. Which is a bit of a pity because I'm probably more interested in replacing my oldest M8 with a £2500 M8.2 than I am in plonking down £5000 for the M9.

[dcuthbert]

Same here, picked up my series 7 filter for the 24 lux and was told there is a m9 being tested in london at the moment and they are pretty much selling it from the 9th, all unofficial mind you.

 

the company in question isn't in the business of talking crap. This is great as it means second hand prices of m8's will now plummet whilst the lemmings run out to buy a new body and us working pro's can afford the older, crapper models

 

So go m9!! all get one.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Saloti]

Fair enough.

 

Incidentally, I just spoke to my London dealer (sounds like I've got a drug habit) and he pretty much confirms that the M9 is coming next month (no surprise there). However, he is also of the view that the M8.2 is finished - apparently there hasn't been stock for some time and it's very much 'end of line'. He is usually very reliable (told me about the existence of the 0.95 Noctilux and the M8.2 some time in advance of Leica's announcements last year) so I think it puts paid to the "M8.2 at half the M9 cost" rumour. Which is a bit of a pity because I'm probably more interested in replacing my oldest M8 with a £2500 M8.2 than I am in plonking down £5000 for the M9.

 

Assuming that M8/M8.2 will be discontinued could it be that the second -digital- camera to be

announced could be fitted with M-lenses, offering a new, but from M8 different body, positioned

very clearly below M8 (~ 2-2,5" Euros)?

[chris_tribble]

An M8.3 with the cropped sensor but much better high ISO for half the price of the M9 was beginning to feel like a nightmare scenario for me. As I've got used to the crop, all my lenses are coded and filtered, being able to fix my biggest gripe with the M8 for a small price could have looked very attractive - and the €5500 tab on the M9 could have looked very very big...

 

IF the new thing's a non-RF box that I can plug an M lens into, I'm much less attracted and the M9 will beckon with an irresistable siren attraction. Oh what interesting times...

[leica007]

Oh I know - TOTALLY illogical. It's just that when I'm paid in Euros it doesn't feel so bad buying things in Euros - old habits. I've still got happy memories when it was around .7 Euros to the Pound.

 

And hey, it's a long time since I made a really rational decision around money things, but I seem to get by ...

 

Do you need an assistant for your 'Euro job'?

[chris_tribble]

Ah - when I'm rich and famous, wouldn't it be great to have someone to carry the bag, pass me the body with the fresh battery and card, or swap lenses while I'm contemplating the shot... MANY thanks for the offer, but I fear I'm going to have to carry my own bag for a few more years!

[leica007]

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When all the DSLR makers are trying to bring down the price (much below the psychological £5000 barrier), and micro 4/3 people are up in arms.... Leica thinks in terms of £5000 !!! another Hitler video will be thrown at them - the way Nikon's D3X was received.

 

My Leica MP price has gone up, but my friend's M8 has gone down. My old and trusty Canon 20d's price has gone down the drain. How many people will invest so much in a highly value depreciating electronic item?

[canlogic]

.

 

IF the new thing's a non-RF box that I can plug an M lens into, I'm much less attracted and the M9 will beckon with an irresistable siren attraction. Oh what interesting times...

 

Do you mean the rebadged panasonic GF1 that Leica is about to announce?

[wattsy]

Ah - when I'm rich and famous, wouldn't it be great to have someone to carry the bag, pass me the body with the fresh battery and card, or swap lenses while I'm contemplating the shot...

 

You hardly need to be rich and famous. When I assisted during the 90s the going rate (e.g. for editorial) was usually £100 per day if you were lucky. I've no call for one personally but I can't imagine it costing much more than that nowadays to 'hire' a half decent (i.e. reliable) assistant. I don't have any clients that would baulk at that kind of additional cost.

[noah_addis]

 

My Leica MP price has gone up, but my friend's M8 has gone down. My old and trusty Canon 20d's price has gone down the drain. How many people will invest so much in a highly value depreciating electronic item?

 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I feel like it's time for me to totally commit to digital and sell off some unused film cameras OR go back to shooting more film. I love film, the texture and feeling of the images and the process of working in the darkroom. But from a business perspective, think about this:

 

As a pro I shoot the equivalent of around 750 rolls of film a year. Each roll costs $9 ($4 to purchase the roll and $5 for processing). That adds up to $6750.

 

Say a new M digital camera costs $7000 and I need two bodies so that's $14k. And say in three years a new camera comes out making mine obsolete. Since Leicas hold their value better than other digital cameras I can probably sell my cameras for $2000 each. That means the cameras cost me $10,000 to own.

 

Had I shot film for three years it would have cost me $20,500.

 

Even if I processed the film myself, figuring the $4 roll of film and $1 per roll for chemicals and my increased home water bill, the three-year film cost would be $11,250.

 

Clearly for an amateur shooting fewer frames per year these numbers may not hold true. But for busy pros the initial cash outlay can pay off in the long term. Furthermore, I believe that an 18MP full-frame M digital, if that's what we're looking at, can have a useful life of at least five years for a working pro and longer for an amateur.

 

But of course as I said I do love film. Frankly if I were an amateur I don't think I'd have any digital cameras. But the reality of the photo business these days is that speed matters and clients often expect digital.

[Saloti]

Do you mean the rebadged panasonic GF1 that Leica is about to announce?

 

Wouldn´t this make a lot of sense?

 

M8/M8.2 being discontinued, M9 plus Leica branded Panasonic GF1

being launched, a "Leica GF1, with Leica lenses...

 

Leica would fill the gap between D Lux 4 and M digital very intelligently.

 

The "other" camera to be launched can only be the result of a cooperation,

Leica has not the resources to develop more than M9 and S2 / R10D........

[Saloti]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I feel like it's time for me to totally commit to digital and sell off some unused film cameras OR go back to shooting more film. I love film, the texture and feeling of the images and the process of working in the darkroom. But from a business perspective, think about this:

 

As a pro I shoot the equivalent of around 750 rolls of film a year. Each roll costs $9 ($4 to purchase the roll and $5 for processing). That adds up to $6750.

 

Say a new M digital camera costs $7000 and I need two bodies so that's $14k. And say in three years a new camera comes out making mine obsolete. Since Leicas hold their value better than other digital cameras I can probably sell my cameras for $2000 each. That means the cameras cost me $10,000 to own.

 

Had I shot film for three years it would have cost me $20,500.

 

Even if I processed the film myself, figuring the $4 roll of film and $1 per roll for chemicals and my increased home water bill, the three-year film cost would be $11,250.

 

Clearly for an amateur shooting fewer frames per year these numbers may not hold true. But for busy pros the initial cash outlay can pay off in the long term. Furthermore, I believe that an 18MP full-frame M digital, if that's what we're looking at, can have a useful life of at least five years for a working pro and longer for an amateur.

 

But of course as I said I do love film. Frankly if I were an amateur I don't think I'd have any digital cameras. But the reality of the photo business these days is that speed matters and clients often expect digital.

 

Noah, I am impressed by your photos. Which camera do you use for your profession?

[Jeanette]

Wouldn´t this make a lot of sense?

 

M8/M8.2 being discontinued, M9 plus Leica branded Panasonic GF1

being launched, a "Leica GF1, with Leica lenses...

 

Leica would fill the gap between D Lux 4 and M digital very intelligently.

 

If the camera which finally fills this "gap" will be the rumored GF1, I'll be pretty disappointed. Obviously, our tastes differ...

 

The "other" camera to be launched can only be the result of a cooperation,

Leica has not the resources to develop more than M9 and S2 / R10D........

 

I kind of agree with you. Then again, a few weeks ago most people on this forum agreed that Leica doesn't have the resources to develop the S2 and the M9 at the same time...

[Saloti]

If the camera which finally fills this "gap" will be the rumored GF1, I'll be pretty disappointed. Obviously, our tastes differ...

 

 

 

I kind of agree with you. Then again, a few weeks ago most people on this forum agreed that Leica doesn't have the resources to develop the S2 and the M9 at the same time...

 

Jaenette,

 

for me it is not a question of taste. I would never ever buy a "Leica GF1". It is more about

ratio. I remember to have read in one of the last financial statements of Leica that the

digital compact camera business contributed to one third of the total turnover of the camera

business. So we have to accept that there are many people out there buying Leica stuff

resulting out of the Panasonic cooperation.

 

Whether we want or not: There IS a segment gap to be closed, we will see whether Leica

will close it, and how....

[dpattinson]

Wouldn´t this make a lot of sense?

 

M8/M8.2 being discontinued, M9 plus Leica branded Panasonic GF1

being launched, a "Leica GF1, with Leica lenses...

 

Leica would fill the gap between D Lux 4 and M digital very intelligently.

 

The "other" camera to be launched can only be the result of a cooperation,

Leica has not the resources to develop more than M9 and S2 / R10D........

 

I doubt the M8.x will be discontinued. I expect it will remain as a cheaper entry level digital M for as long as it can be sold for a profit.

[dpattinson]

My Leica MP price has gone up, but my friend's M8 has gone down. My old and trusty Canon 20d's price has gone down the drain. How many people will invest so much in a highly value depreciating electronic item?

 

Really? Your MP is now worth more second-hand than it cost new when you bought it?

[noah_addis]

Noah, I am impressed by your photos. Which camera do you use for your profession?

 

Thanks.

 

I'm using the M8 exclusively now. I'm updating my website now so some projects are missing from my site and archive, but my Brazil, Wall Street and Serving the Nation projects are M8. Cuba and Istanbul are Tri-X with film M cameras.

 

All wedding work is M8.

Edited August 26, 2009 by noah_addis
typo

[jonoslack]

Jaenette,

 

for me it is not a question of taste. I would never ever buy a "Leica GF1". It is more about

ratio. I remember to have read in one of the last financial statements of Leica that the

digital compact camera business contributed to one third of the total turnover of the camera

business. So we have to accept that there are many people out there buying Leica stuff

resulting out of the Panasonic cooperation.

 

Ho Hum

I thought that the point of the GF1 (and 4/3 generally) was that they weren't 'compact cameras' the sensor may be half full frame, but it's still many times bigger than the d-lux4 (for instance).

They also have the advantage of interchangeable lenses, and you can mount M mount (and pretty much any other lens you fancy) on them. Hardly a 'compact camera' scenario.

 

Then again, Leica have made it pretty clear on a number of occasions that they aren't going down the micro 4/3 route (I actually think they're wrong about this). So it seems pretty unlikely that a Leica GF1 is going to be announced.

[andybarton]

Wouldn´t this make a lot of sense?

 

M8/M8.2 being discontinued, M9 plus Leica branded Panasonic GF1

being launched, a "Leica GF1, with Leica lenses...

 

Leica would fill the gap between D Lux 4 and M digital very intelligently.

 

Apart from the 2x crop factor...

 

If the M8.2 is no more, why not just keep old faithful M8 as the entry level?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeanette]

I would never ever buy a "Leica GF1".

 

Once again we agree...

 

It is more about

ratio. I remember to have read in one of the last financial statements of Leica that the

digital compact camera business contributed to one third of the total turnover of the camera

business. So we have to accept that there are many people out there buying Leica stuff

resulting out of the Panasonic cooperation.

 

There is no question that the Panasonic/Leica cooperation is a good thing for both companies. Panasonic can create lenses that adhere to a certain standard and use the famous name "Leica" for them while Leica gets a couple of small compacts virtually "for free" (as far as R&D is concerned) and can sell them as Leicas. Whether a "Leica GF1" would be profitable for Leica in the long run, we both don't know, and I don't want to audition for another armchair CEO role anyway. I'm more interested in what I personally would like to see from Leica:

 

Whether we want or not: There IS a segment gap to be closed, we will see whether Leica

will close it, and how....

 

There definitely is this gap (identified by Dr. Kaufmann and others some time ago already) and I have certain hopes about what Leica could do to close it. A "Leica GF1" is not what I'm hoping for. For me, the D-Lux 4 and the C-Lux 3 as well as their predecessors are typical viewfinder-less digital compacts and there's nothing Leica-specific about them. (Some will probably argue that the D-Lux 4 is the best digital compact currently available. Maybe, but still it's not a camera I'd want to have.) OTOH, the M8 - no matter which flaws it might have - is the Leica par excellence, it's the keeper of the flame (maybe soon to be superseded by the M9).

 

So, for me, the question is whether Leica wants to close the gap with yet another viewfinder-less compact (which the GF1 will be, IMHO, no matter what else it has to offer) or with something that differentiates themselves from the competition. The Digilux 2 was such a beast - a camera which was clearly different. (I have to admit that I'm only saying this with hindsight and didn't realize it when I had it in my hands some years ago, but to my defense I have to say that I was still shooting film at that time and didn't know and care much about how the rest of the digital world looked like.)

 

As I said in other threads, I have no idea if Leica can pull off a third digital system of their own (in addition to and below the M and the S series), but if they did, I'm pretty hopeful they could come up with something that didn't look and feel like everything else. And that's what I want to have. Good luck with the re-badged Panasonics, but they're not for me.

 

Disclaimer #1: No need to argue about this. I don't know if it's feasible or if it'll make sense economically, and the priorities of many others here will be different. This is just one of my personal hobbyhorses.

 

Disclaimer #2: This may sound heretic to some, but I don't care much about the quality of Leica lenses. I pretty much take them for granted and I also think other companies build fine lenses. Heck, I probably wouldn't mind if someone replaced my Leica lenses with equivalent Zeiss or Voigtländer lenses, I don't think it'd affect my photos. What I care about is how a camera feels when I'm using it and that's where Leica is important for me.